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Hi Bob. Thanks for your staunch efforts. I have been there....... although the complexities of Jack were beyond me.
Is Line In really broken in Mavericks? I have a new boot SSD in my studio computer. afaik I have successfully used LineIn on Mavericks. ( I use Line In to access Dirac Live as a virtual piece of HW) Long story.
All readers plse note the onboard Line Input and Output both Analogue and Digital Optical on the Mac work fine with REW.
FuzzMeasure works fine with Macs and the IR's can be exported for Import into REW which has more and better analysis features.
DD
Excellent point Dan about exporting the IRs from Fuzzmeasure! That's exactly the procedure I will do from this moment on. I don't know for sure if LineIn is broken on Mavericks, I only know that the installer crashed on my machine. Did you install LineIn back in the day and then upgrade to Mavericks? Jack looks daunting, but it is really a sweet puppy that any engineer who has ever patched a gozinta into a gozouta can conquer. Just read the manual, then turn it on and use it. Suddenly the light bulb will light up and you've got it. Did you read my procedure in the other thread?

As for the onboard of the MacPro. I don't want to go lofi and use the analog interface. However, I do have the optical digital out of the MacPro hooked up and it can feed my DAC in Studio B. For the input side, I'll rig up an SPDIF to Toslink converter and try using the MOTU as a standalone external ADC. If the Mac can be put into external sync on digital in and then Java can address it maybe we can do it that way. Sounds like a project for another rainy weekend.
 

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Unfortunately Bob, there is a little more.....
When Exporting from FM, first Normalise, then chose 24 or 32 Bit, not the default 16.
Import the resulting Aiff or Wav into REW and let the analysis begin. In a sense I wish that REW also cost 150 bucks because FM is kinda withering on the vine because the developer is trying to make a living with his other (quite interesting) iapps.
I will try Jack, reading your above post, in an effort to enable my Dirac Live workaround, which despite your gozintas and outas, which I regularly use, would make your eyes water. LineIn works for me but randomly comes up with long latencies which have to be cleared by clicking the pass through..... Two second long latencies.....
Mavericks finally dumps all support for PPC code. I expect that his why the Line In installer would not work.
Just copy your previous LineIn or I can send you the one I have working on Mav.

And more. Digidesign CoreAudioManager can nicely screw any scenario up if you change from 44.1 to 48 and then try to return. Glorious silence..... What is it with 48K? I never regarded this as a norm or a default, yet, Digidesign and many others, like MiniDSP, do.

Just to get fully back OT here though, are you now saying as I did some posts ago? ...i.e. 'These workarounds are not working'

DD
 

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Dear DanDan and crew:

Yes, I am saying that these workarounds are not working for me, at least with the MOTU interface and the ULN-8. The problem with the ULN-8 is its output patching facility is not seen by REW, although it is seen by every other audio application on the Mac. The reason: Javasound. Audio applications have to directly support CoreAudio on the Mac in order to really work well. I'd be happy to switch back to PC, but I've got troubles with this MOTU interface and REW over there as you know.

My suggestion to John is that he continue to develop REW as a wonderful analysis program written in Java. And create an ancillary program written in another language for both PC and Mac that can do the sweeps. On the PC this ancillary program should support ASIO directly and stably. On the Mac it should support CoreAudio directly and stably. Maybe he should charge for the sampling program but continue to make REW freeware? In John's "copious free time" of course...

As an analyzer, REW works great and has some of the best and easiest-to-use and understand audio analysis tools on the planet. I also have Acourate and admire it greatly. It can do things which REW never dreamed of, it is extremely powerful but the learning curve is high. Even so, it does not have the graphic displays like RT60 and waterfalls, the automatic calculation of Eq's for IIR-based products, etc. Horses for courses as they say. REW was developed by a developer who knows how to make user-friendly software, right on down to the help menu. It should be a commercial product, John, I'd pay $200 for REW today! Actually, I did contribute to the HTS, hope some of this money got to John.

I decided to pretend it was a rainy day and try using the digital I/O of the MacPro with REW. The Mac Pro with Snow Leopard doesn't apparently lock to an external optical source as I could not even see the microphone output in OSX's Sound preferences. So end of that story.

Thanks for the offer, DanDan, but don't send me LineIn. I never had it in the first place and I'd rather not engage in the workaround. My short term memory isn't what it used to be, and carrying around a set of complicated notes just to take a sweep is not my idea of a fun day.

BK

Unfortunately Bob, there is a little more.....
When Exporting from FM, first Normalise, then chose 24 or 32 Bit, not the default 16.
Import the resulting Aiff or Wav into REW and let the analysis begin. In a sense I wish that REW also cost 150 bucks because FM is kinda withering on the vine because the developer is trying to make a living with his other (quite interesting) iapps.
I will try Jack, reading your above post, in an effort to enable my Dirac Live workaround, which despite your gozintas and outas, which I regularly use, would make your eyes water. LineIn works for me but randomly comes up with long latencies which have to be cleared by clicking the pass through..... Two second long latencies.....
Mavericks finally dumps all support for PPC code. I expect that his why the Line In installer would not work.
Just copy your previous LineIn or I can send you the one I have working on Mav.

And more. Digidesign CoreAudioManager can nicely screw any scenario up if you change from 44.1 to 48 and then try to return. Glorious silence..... What is it with 48K? I never regarded this as a norm or a default, yet, Digidesign and many others, like MiniDSP, do.

Just to get fully back OT here though, are you now saying as I did some posts ago? ...i.e. 'These workarounds are not working'

DD
 

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Oh by the way, the Impulse which I exported from FuzzMeasure has some garbage in front of the impulse that FuzzMeasure itself does not show. So it must be some artifact of the export or perhaps the normalization. I shortened the REW analysis left hand window to (hopefully) not include most of that garbage. Here's a picture of it. Any thoughts on the cause or whether it hurts any of the analysis to include this garbage that's in front of the impulse?
 

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Bit beyond my pay grade but as best I can describe it, that pre information is the distortion.
Take no notice of it, but keep it in case you want to view harmonic distortion.
My MacPro is on Snow Leopard (and Mavericks on a second SSD boot) It is happily accepting a Digital Optical Stream from my Digi HD192. BUT a friend has just noticed that his MacPro won't accept 96K on the Dig input, while his Macbook Pro will. The following is working fine for me....LOL, try Gozinta on this lot.
Screen shot 2014-02-23 at 16.27.52.png
Note, the AMS stated Unlocked until I quit and reopened it!
Fuzz has a wonderful facility for remote recording. It generates a sweep that can be played on anything and the result recorded into anything, even Zooms or whatever. Altiverb has an even better system. But unfortunately I need to see my results immediately as this often dictates the next test, e.g. a change of position of speaker or mic and so on.

DD
 

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Can I use[*] REW with an UMIK-1 virtualizing Windows on the Mac (Parallels, Fusion, etc ...)?

[*]"properly and fully functional"
 

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Can I use[*] REW with an UMIK-1 virtualizing Windows on the Mac (Parallels, Fusion, etc ...)?

[*]"properly and fully functional"

The answer to your question is currently unknown ( as far as I'm concerned ) due to the fact that "Mavericks" has broken a couple of basic functionalities that people have come to rely on .

Running in an emulated ( virtual ) PC mode is ( apparently ) no longer a guarantee of success for REW/Java compatibility ( due to something changing within Mavericks ) .


In my ( limited ) experience , OSX 10.6.8 ( with Java 6 ) was the "sweet-spot" for REW compatibility ( when running an Intel-based Mac ) .

:sn:
 

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All new Mac cannot use Snow Leopard.
To summarize: REW isn't a software to be used with a Mac
It isn't multi-platform (it is better to try/find/look for another sw) :huh:
 

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All new Mac cannot use Snow Leopard.
To summarize: REW isn't a software to be used with a Mac
It isn't multi-platform (it is better to try/find/look for another sw) :huh:

The quoted text, read as statements ( since they lack the required "?" after the text ) so I'll treat them as such .

i) Your Line 1 is true .

ii) I would debate line 2 ( since you didn't use the word "new" before the word Mac . REW has been used successfully with earlier versions of the Mac OS .

iii) Line 3 ( looks to be ) true, if one is insistent on using a Mac that is running Mavericks .

:sn:
 

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Can I use an UMIK-1?
Easily? No, there are problems...

Can I use a FW interface?
Easily? No, there are problems...

Can I use Mavericks? Easily?
No, there are problems... (Apple doesn't sell previous versions of Mac OSX nor allows you to install it...)

In order to use REW with my Mac, I've bought so many useless things (UMIK the latest) that now I can say: "REW isn't for Mac users"

I think it is the sw which must be written according to the OS.
Not the other way...

P.S. I'd pay for a working version with Mac OSX.
 

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I spoke to a world-class expert (Jim Johnston) about the garbage in front of the impulse and he said basically, no ifs, ands or buts, they have to fix it (they being FuzzMeasure). Since this garbage does not appear in FuzzMeasure's own display, it's probably not a problem for them, but then again, I don't think FuzzMeasure's display goes far enough back in negative time to be sure. JJ told me that the garbage is probably wraparound from the sweep and can cause all kinds of anomalies. And you can't get around it by windowing closet to the 0 as you don't know what other kinds of anomalies are occurring.

My solution: Sample in Acourate and export to REW. This works already, very well, I already tried it. Or, get another interface for my portable work :-(. Or, wait till John fixes the ASIO issue on the PC side. The Mac side will take a lot longer, if ever, for him to fix, sadly.
 

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Expert

Hi Bob, I am communicating with JohnPM and the head guy at MiniDSP, regarding the problems between Apple and Java and REW and MiniDSP.
There is a compounded impossible situation here. Apple are not doing Java, MiniDSP products are 48K natural, or only 48K in the case of the UMIK-1. There appears to be a reasonable chance of REW working with the UMIK-1 if it were changed to 44.1K. JohnPM is very helpful regarding REW, which is why I know about the association between the pre-image and distortion. There is only one real expert IMO. Perhaps if one considers the concept of pre-ringing in filters, it may become palatable to see action before zero? This is a normal REW graph of a measurement done in REW, not an import. distortion.jpg

DD
 

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Re: Expert

Dear DanDan:

While you're waiting for the developers of the MiniDSP to try to solve the Mac problems, why not install Bootcamp on your Mac and work in Windows? It takes me 1 minute total to switch operating systems on my SSD-equipped MacBook pro.

Now to go off-topic. Your image in dBFS shows something happening in front of the impulse but it is not the same phenomenon that I saw with the import from REW. That was NOT preringing or pre-echo of any form, and according to Jim Johnston, a respected world's expert on this topic, that was some form of wraparound distortion that should nullify the use of an import from REW.

Now in terms of interpreting your log scale impulse, those look to me like anomalies in the noise floor of your room contaminating the measurement in some way. It is not distortion caused by the sampling. I believe these echos are too far away from the impulse to be caused by pre-ringing in a filter. Attached are three pictures from my measurements in Studio A, which has a noise floor below 30 dBC. The linear is an extreme zoom to exagerrate any ringing or pre-impulse, and as you can see it still looks very well behaved. Those pre-rings are within 1 ms. of the start of the impulse while yours go back in the hundreds of milliseconds, which looks like an acoustical noise-related contamination issue to me. These are not imports either as I take measurements with REW directly using a Lynx Soundcard. I suggest you try averaging your impulses to reduce noise influence and see if that three-peak anomaly goes away. Or, if you are not taking the measurement at sufficient SPL, try taking it at a higher SPL to see what you get in front of your speaker impulse.

I also added a second log picture of the same impulse with as close to the identical zoom as in your image. The impulse starts at 908 actual milliseconds as due to the use of Acourate Convolver with FIR filters with a 65k long impulse there is nearly 1 second latency in my system!

If you disagree with my interpretations, we could both defer to our respective experts and agree to meet in a duel at high noon ;-).
 

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I'm a bit confused about the turn taken by the discussion as the REW docs state quite clearly that the images of the impulse before zero are distortion images.



(http://www.roomeqwizard.com/wizardhelpv5/help_en-GB/html/impulseresponse.html)

Returning somewhat to the topic of this thread, I run REW (and UMIK-1) regularly in Windows (7) under VMWare Fusion. I suppose that could be considered another approach to the OSX workaround, if you have a Windows license. I read there are various issues with Mavericks but have not explored them (and probably won't...!)
 

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In that case, HiFiZine, then I am mistaken about the anomalies which DanDan measured. I've learned something today! It also looks like the amplitude of the 2nd and additional harmonics is VERY LOW in my Studio A system! I've not seen anomalies like those ever in my Studio A pictures. I'll have to zoom in and look for them.

Regardless, I've decided not to trust the REW import that I got under expert advice. (see my previous post the other day).
 

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Now we're getting down to something (still off topic). Approximately a year ago I switched from an analog-based subwoofer eq to a full DRC and digital crossover using Acourate convolver. In the previous measurement taken January 2013, I can see some small spikes in the negative time before the impulse (much less than in either DanDan's or PM's example picture). But since then I am using Acourate Convolver. The harmonic distortion measurements (using REW) have lowered by 15 dB between 20 and 200 Hz! Due to the use of a steep linear phase crossover keeping the woofer better within its operating range than any standard crossover. Probably that's why I have not seen any spikes in the impulse in negative time since that point.

If you would like to see some of my before-after Acourate Convolver measurements of the front speakers I can start another thread if you would like.
 

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Experts

Bob, I have bounced measurements back and forth between FM and REW extensively and for a long time.
The default behaviour of FM, not normalising and choosing 16Bit when exporting did show truncation in the resulting REW imports. That was about the extent of the problems I and many others looking carefully encountered.
This computer, my office iMac is on Mavericks and most of my online viewing and analysis are done here.
Due to your unease about the FM import I decided to test today. The expert to end all experts perhaps, the test....
I am using the onboard mic and speakers, which both REW and FM have always been happy with. I tried sweeps in both FM and REW and exported at 32 Bit, Normalised in FM and Not.
Without extensive and careful testing of each element there is no point in going in to any detail.
But from the immediate results I would not trust the Export and Import process at all right now. Certainly from FM to REW. Normalising seems to cause problems and the IR window seems to get included in the Export.

I don't think we will see a solution to the Apple Java issues any time soon, probably never, so the interface problems will remain. Seems like nothing other than a stereo USB will work for REW on a Mac.
I do believe that if the UMIK clock were changed to 44.! the Mac problems would go. I, and Apple it seems, do not regard 48K as a go to or norm for music.


DD
 

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Re: Experts

Guys, I have had complete success interchanging impulse responses between Acourate and REW and I do feel confident in that. The two programs go hand in hand. Acourate for the nitty gritty stuff and REW for the pretty stuff :).
 
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