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Discussion Starter #1
DIY Panels from GIK

A funny thing happened at RMAF. I was talking with Glenn and Shelly from GIK about their new DIY panel kits, and commented that they were exactly what I need to finish my front wall. Then Glenn offered to send me panels for the purpose if I would review them.

Naturally I said YES!

They just arrived. I will chronicle the experience.
 

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Just checked out the GIK website for info on these... There's about a 100% chance I'll be buying those frames for my HT. Can't wait to hear your review!
 

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Do you know if they are going to be offering the diffuser slats(Alpha Series) as a kit too?
 

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I assume you are referring to the DIY frames? I just checked the GIK website and it seems they are not offering the Monster Bass Trap frame? At only 4" thick the DIY frame is not quite thick enough for me to use it as a bass trap. Too bad.
 

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I assume you are referring to the DIY frames? I just checked the GIK website and it seems they are not offering the Monster Bass Trap frame? At only 4" thick the DIY frame is not quite thick enough for me to use it as a bass trap. Too bad.
From what I saw, that's the way it looks. There just might not be any convenient way to make a bass trap as a flat-pack item... OR maybe we're just talking ahead of the release of that item. That would be nice.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
What I was sent is 4 of the 2 ft x 4 ft x 4 in frames, plus fabric to cover them with (Guilford of Maine - Aquamarine), plus 6 pieces of Knauf board. The Knauf board comes 6 to a package, they would normally be used 2 per panel, but there was discussion about the extra shipping cost and I am only going to be using 4 of them anyway, thus the 6 pieces instead of 8.

Although my traps are not going to be official "Bass Traps," as you will soon see, the final result will have some bass-trap-ISH characteristics.

I will get some photos loaded today.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
The primary purpose of the front of room panels in my room will be:
  • Eliminate reflections that disrupt soundstage and imaging (SS&I).
  • Optionally include controlled diffusion.
  • Dampen LF reflections and standing waves that involve the front wall.
 

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Anxiously awaiting the photographs, as Todd mentioned, popcorn in hand.
 

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Hello Jack, haven't heard from you in a while! Glad to see you posting again. How have you been? Seems like the last thing I remember, you were toying around with some surround speakers for your room. How did that ever go?
 

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Hello Jack, haven't heard from you in a while! Glad to see you posting again. How have you been? Seems like the last thing I remember, you were toying around with some surround speakers for your room. How did that ever go?
Thank You for the welcome back, I will be posting again. Indeed I was toying around with speakers in the room but once we spent all that dough on a fence, tires for my car and repair of my wife's suv and some further medical bills, I kind of lost my mojo. So I stopped on the surround stuff and even the home theater room. I am still watching and listening but have done very little to the room. I hope to get back full steam as several issues have come to mind. I will start proper threads in due course.

As far as this topic, I have been experimenting with some raw knauf sections to see what would happen as without thee framework they are kinda easy to move. Placing panels behind the speakers and in corners really helps with taming bass but might otherwise deaden my room too much....we shall see.
 

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You are very welcome Jack, & again, it is good to have you back. Hope the medical bills we not serious. As far as progress goes, mine has pretty much come to a halt as well. But I will get there eventually.

I have come to believe that a good amount of diffusion is just as important as absorption. If not more so. I think it was Talley that started me researching the absorption vs diffusion patterns. You will need at least 4 feet between it and the plp to be effective.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
First, proof of concept. This is ugly, I will warn you.

Dennis - Tesseract - has seen it and heard it, and we have discussed it and he does not agree 100% with certain aspects of the approach. I respect his views and experience immensely but it has become an Agree To Disagree situation. I personally have no problem with that, and expect others might disagree with parts of the approach as well.

IMG_20161102_125501a ProofOfConcept.jpg

What you see is UltraTouch Denim Insulation by Bonded Logic, made from recycled denim for general insulation purposes and for sound absorption and insulation. It is easy to handle, NO ITCH! It is easy to cut or tear by hand. It is quite dense and has good acoustical absorptive properties, although its dense, fairly flat surface is not without some reflections at mid and high frequencies.

There are four columns of the stuff, basically propped up and held in place with boards and whatever. Each of these will be replaced by a GIK panel when the project is done. Notice that the four columns are standing at angles, the two on the left are angled toward the left and the two on the right are angled to the right. This is an important part of the design.

Outside of those columns of insulation are two custom reflectors which I suspect will be of no interest to anyone.:heehee:
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I see that between Savjac and Tonto there is already some discussion about diffusion vs. absorption. Tesseract and I have had that discussion as well. This ain't the last we will hear of it, I am sure.

Here is my condensed view of the matter.

  1. A certain amount of diffusion, which helps produce spaciousness, is a good thing, as long as it does not negatively impact soundstage and imaging (SS&I).
  2. Where diffusion can not be controlled in a way that preserves SS&I, absorption is probably necessary.
  3. Where there is a conflict between the two, SS&I wins over spaciousness.
These fun little rules of thumb that I live by are very certainly dependent on listener preference. However, listener preference is also very certainly dependent on personal experience.
 

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I do believe for the most part you are correct good sir.
However may I put forth a couple of thoughts herein ?

1) Personally I tend to use the word Soundspace in these discussions because for me, spaciousness, imaging and soundstage are all part of the soundspace being reproduced in our respective rooms. In working with one aspect of a Soundspace all other aspects should be included.

2)Whether diffusion or absorption is used, it should be done to bring the Soundspace into fruition as best as we know it.

3) I understand you point here and it is well taken and frankly I used to think the exact same way. Of late however, I keep going back to the Soundspace presentation as one entity that should encompass the three points you discuss, with no real emphasis on any one.

You are simply correct that this is listener dependent. I look at a musical event that is presented as a whole both live and as reproduced in the home. I would never think of going to a live concert at say Orchestra Hall and saying the performance was good but that soundstage was not right.

At least this makes sense to me. Its kind of like the image attached, there is just something missing from the original.

I see that between Savjac and Tonto there is already some discussion about diffusion vs. absorption. Tesseract and I have had that discussion as well. This ain't the last we will hear of it, I am sure.

Here is my condensed view of the matter.

  1. A certain amount of diffusion, which helps produce spaciousness, is a good thing, as long as it does not negatively impact soundstage and imaging (SS&I).
  2. Where diffusion can not be controlled in a way that preserves SS&I, absorption is probably necessary.
  3. Where there is a conflict between the two, SS&I wins over spaciousness.
These fun little rules of thumb that I live by are very certainly dependent on listener preference. However, listener preference is also very certainly dependent on personal experience.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
As always, Jack, I appreciate your perspective. I will add a couple more detailed thoughts that might clarify my own a little, and I believe are compatible with yours, too.

Crisp, sharp imaging, or the lack thereof, is highly dependent on the recording and mixing methods used for a given track. If image clarity and sharpness is not "in the mix," it is gone and cannot be recovered. A recording that was created with image clarity and sharpness in the mix can be reproduced in a listening room to be every bit as sharp and clear, with proper care.

Spaciousness is a little hard to define because it can come from different sources. It can include the sound of a concert hall that an orchestra is recorded in. Being part of the recording, one is kinda stuck with it. Depending on recording and mixing methods, that recorded spaciousness might or might not detract from the sharpness of the imaging in that recording.

Attempts to enhance a recording's spaciousness in one's listening room can be very pleasing and can do so without dulling or detracting from that image clarity, or approached differently, they can be very disruptive to image clarity.

My own listening preference leans toward tracks that have the sharpest, clearest imaging "in the mix" possible. There is a magical quality about such recordings when reproduced with that image clarity preserved. When I said, "However, listener preference is also very certainly dependent on personal experience," I was suggesting that many listeners might not fully appreciate that kind of experience because it is relatively rare and not easily achieved. I have seen a number of previously unappreciative listeners become ardent converts to that view after a brief exposure to it in a "properly" set up room. I still recall a post from a year or two ago where the individual emphasized how that kind of experience "really messes with your head." Those who have that kind of experience for the first time may or may not go crazy for it like I have. My suspicion is that the majority of listeners, given that experience and an open mind free of conflicting agendas, will become ardent converts to it and will spend the rest of their listening days in pursuit of it. BUT, there are bound to be exceptions.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Here is the UltraTouch as found at the local Menards building supply store.

IMG_20161104_130749a UltraTouch1.jpg

IMG_20161104_130849a UltraTouch2.jpg


Here are the materials received from GIK, still boxed up.

IMG_20161102_124847-a Packages by door.jpg


The Knauf board, six pieces in a carton.

IMG_20161103_060200a Knauf Board In Box.jpg


The frame pieces. Notice they are routed to have the needed strength without extra weight.

IMG_20161103_060244a Frame Pieces In Box.jpg


The six Knauf board pieces out of the carton. They are medium dense and have smooth sides front and back.

IMG_20161103_062128a Knauf Pieces Laid Out.jpg


The corner triangles for structural strength.

IMG_20161103_064651a Corner Triangles.jpg


All laid out.

IMG_20161103_064837a All Laid Out.jpg


The box of frame pieces from GIK included screws for assembling the frames and nails for the corner pieces.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
It was a sunny day in Lincoln Nebraska today, so I made some good progress.

Hmmm, looks just a little confusing in this view... BUT WAIT!...
IMG_20161105_141045a Pieces Piled.jpg

Alright. Now we are starting to line up pilot holes for assembly. A very slight mismatch between hole spacings on end and side pieces only slowed me down a little. I am assured that GIK is refining that aspect of the design.
IMG_20161105_141612a Holes Off.jpg

Here is the first corner screwed together loosely with the provided drywall screws.
IMG_20161105_142139a Corner.jpg

And the first entire frame screwed together loosely. Note the composition board is easy to strip out if screwed too tightly or if mishandled, so I am proceeding with caution.
IMG_20161105_143050a Frame Loose.jpg

The Knauf board is 4 ft by 8 ft and the outside dimensions of the frame are 4 ft by 8 ft. GIK's instructions state that trimming of the Knauf pieces will be necessary.
IMG_20161105_143814a Knauf on Frame.jpg

Placing two sides along the inside edges of the frame and using the remaining 2 sides as guides for cutting, I found the Knauf board very easy to cut with a serrated bread knife. A few successive long slices is all it took.
IMG_20161105_145033a Partial Cut In Frame.jpg

You can see the two cuts partially done.
IMG_20161105_145406a Partial Cut 2.jpg

And the trimmed panel fits in the frame snugly. Nice!
IMG_20161105_145913a Knauf Fits in Frame.jpg

Now I am contemplating just how to use the UltraTouch batting along with the Knauf, and how to use the provided fabric to cover it all. Contemplation time cannot be rushed. After chili with friends and some more contemplation time, the answer appeared. The mind is a terrible thing. Wait... The mind is a terrible thing to waste... and a wonderful thing to create with - yes, that's better. By that time it was dark. More tomorrow...
IMG_20161105_151451a What About UltraTouch.jpg
 

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Hey Wayne, nice job so far! Do you think it would be easier to turn the insulation sideways? Looks you could cut to fit perfectly that way.
Not to take over your project, just thinking out loud again!
 

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You read my mind, or I read yours, Tonto. Another sunny day here, so outside making more progress.

Status: There were a couple of tiny splits starting in the shorter cross pieces where screws were inserted. I rubbed in a little wood glue and clamped while it dried, to strengthen the wood there.

Then I exercised my right to DIY-OCD and, with no disassembly, added wood glue to all exposed joints and potential split spots. One frame remains to be assembled, I will probably use a little glue in all the joints for that final frame.

When finished, two panels will be done the GIK way and two will be done my way with one layer of Knauf board and a layer of the denim material. The trick will be adding the thicker denim (5 inch thick but very squishy) to the 2 inch Knauf without pushing the Knauf board out of the front or causing it to bulge. A couple of vertical lengths of 1 x 2 (3/4 x 1.5 actual) will be glued & screwed to the inside of the frame to support it plus a couple outside the back to hold in place.

The two GIK-way panels will be appropriate for portable use. The other two will be heavier and will be semi permanent when installed. All 4 will be attached so their angle relative to the wall can be varied at will.
 
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