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I am glad you love the movie soundtrack, so do I. But in this case I am not speaking to the "low" in the sound but the impact supplied by the main speakers. This is where the impact of the tank shelling comes from and it will draw an awful lot of power to take command of the woofers and force them to do the right thing. I am sure the guts of a power supple would be severely taxed in these scenes.
This will also put on display many of the short comings of some amps in that they may not have power reserves to keep up.
Agreed... lots of midrange in that movie when the tanks fire off. I played the movie for a friend at -5db and he said the movie was perfect and wouldnt' want louder. SPL meter peaks were hitting around 101-102db but most of the movie bounced around the 85-95db range. I never noticed any strain.
 

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Most excellent. I have not heard your speakers but I am sure they can do some harm to your body. :)
 

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I think another thing that this session proves is that you do need more than just 30 - 50 watts of power to drive good speakers at comfortable listening levels. This also means that many low end receivers that drop to below 50watts per channel under load would fail at giving good levels of undistorted sound.
 

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I think another thing that this session proves is that you do need more than just 30 - 50 watts of power to drive good speakers at comfortable listening levels. This also means that many low end receivers that drop to below 50watts per channel under load would fail at giving good levels of undistorted sound.
It depends on the speaker efficiency, and how loud you want it.:T
 

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I'm not sure, but I think 80% is considered significant in a subjective endeavor. I'll dig around for more info when I return home. Agreed that repeatability would make the data more robust.

If we had more amps, it would likely have dinged my score down considerably. Less amps, I might have scored 100%. :D

Remembering X was easy for me until the end. The next test will build on this one and I'm confident the group will have better data. I do hope I can attend, this was a blast and I liked working with such an intelligent bunch.
The percent correct can only be said to be statistically significant when the acceptable level of error is decided and the number of trials is considered. 80% on 28 trials is very different from 80% on 7 trials.
 

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Unless power ouput is measured it is only speculation on the actual values.
Lots of numbers can be bantered about, but unless you measure it you don't know what it is.
When the SPL is really high it is possible the speakers are the cause of the distortion as well as its possible the amp is the cause of the distortion.
Subwoofers go a long way towards amplifier relief.
 

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Discussion Starter #87
Oh, and Sonnie and I spent some quality time Monday fine tuning the two channel soundstage with his MartinlLogan ESLs. Cannot believe I forgot to snap any pics of that. I will have him take a couple.

The results were pretty fine. Even got the density that gives super depth acuity. Thick as pudding.

He is a brave soul. A couple of times I admitted that a piece of the process might seem a little outlandish, and he always responded "as long as it sounde good." he seemed pleased with the final sound.

Part of what prompted this exercise was a wandering acoustic guitar on a Nickel Creek track We turned to placement of absorptive panels to control reflections, then to manipulating where the reflections fell, then on to other fine points. A report will follow.
 

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Oh, and Sonnie and I spent some quality time Monday fine tuning the two channel soundstage with his MartinlLogan ESLs. Cannot believe I forgot to snap any pics of that. I will have him take a couple.

The results were pretty fine. Even got the density that gives super depth acuity. Thick as pudding.

He is a brave soul. A couple of times I admitted that a piece of the process might seem a little outlandish, and he always responded "as long as it sounde good." he seemed pleased with the final sound.

Part of what prompted this exercise was a wandering acoustic guitar on a Nickel Creek track We turned to placement of absorptive panels to control reflections, then to manipulating where the reflections fell, then on to other fine points. A report will follow.
Very much looking forward to this...pics would be awesome.
 

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Scatter shooting...
For me one of the unexpected outcomes of this endeavor even before the "official" report is posted is the apparent sudden about face in opinion by some members on the premise that amplifiers sound so different from each other that they can be easily identified.
This type of testing has been done many times, one well known test had $10,000 on the line for anyone that "passed" .... The $10k stayed in the challenger's pocket...... Probably a good thing for the promoter that tesseract was not around when that challenge was going on.....:D
I wonder if this about face on the amplifiers will hold once the detailed report is posted or will there be a sudden retrenching with countless objections and justifications of how the test was wrong.
Another belief to ponder is in regards to magic power cords or specially designed speaker wires and interconnects.
If amplifiers are so similar they cannot be distinguished from one another, how can a wire change the sound enough to be distinguishable from any other wire?
Just pondering the mysteries of the universe this morning.
Enjoy your coffee.
 

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Scatter shooting...
For me one of the unexpected outcomes of this endeavor even before the "official" report is posted is the apparent sudden about face in opinion by some members on the premise that amplifiers sound so different from each other that they can be easily identified.
This type of testing has been done many times, one well known test had $10,000 on the line for anyone that "passed" .... The $10k stayed in the challenger's pocket...... Probably a good thing for the promoter that tesseract was not around when that challenge was going on.....:D
I wonder if this about face on the amplifiers will hold once the detailed report is posted or will there be a sudden retrenching with countless objections and justifications of how the test was wrong.
Another belief to ponder is in regards to magic power cords or specially designed speaker wires and interconnects.
If amplifiers are so similar they cannot be distinguished from one another, how can a wire change the sound enough to be distinguishable from any other wire?
Just pondering the mysteries of the universe this morning.
Enjoy your coffee.
I read that article too. I heard it was still out there as an option. Tesseract should look into the details :)
 

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I think another thing that this session proves is that you do need more than just 30 - 50 watts of power to drive good speakers at comfortable listening levels. This also means that many low end receivers that drop to below 50watts per channel under load would fail at giving good levels of undistorted sound.
It depends on the speaker efficiency, and how loud you want it.:T
I once owned pair of KEF 105/3 speakers that were very efficient and played crazy-loud as advertised, but didn't really seem to "sing" until a certain power threshold was passed. I've also read about other speakers "behaving" the same way, but have no first-hand experience. Do you believe such a phenomenon exists that requires higher amplifier power for speakers that don't play well quietly?

The percent correct can only be said to be statistically significant when the acceptable level of error is decided and the number of trials is considered. 80% on 28 trials is very different from 80% on 7 trials.
This sub-thread really interests me. I loved taking statistics courses, but can't remember much now as a senior citizen. Thanks for bringing back the memories! :nerd: :R

Part of what prompted this exercise was a wandering acoustic guitar on a Nickel Creek track We turned to placement of absorptive panels to control reflections, then to manipulating where the reflections fell, then on to other fine points. A report will follow.
Fascinating stuff, and I'm truly on the edge of my seat to read your findings. I've been struggling a long time on my 2ch system with one of my test tracks ("Hotel California" from the Eagles Hell Freezes Over album). The opening acoustic guitar from the right channel presents a couple of problems:
  1. The guitar body (all the notes) seems to stretch toward the left and back again
  2. The guitar body (individual notes) seems to split in two and notes become "tangled"
Problem-1 changes with toe-in and distance to side wall. Problem-2 happens during the fast part of the solo. It gets better when acoustically treating the side wall, but never really goes away. I think comb filtering may be the culprit. It's time for some REW and miniDSP to the rescue! I think I'm ready to toss an old audiophile reservation aside and take the plunge into adding an A/D-D/A conversion.

Incidentally, early crowd noise nicely reveals the recording venue by relaying height and depth when my speakers and room treatment are properly dialed-in!

Another belief to ponder is in regards to magic power cords or specially designed speaker wires and interconnects.
If amplifiers are so similar they cannot be distinguished from one another, how can a wire change the sound enough to be distinguishable from any other wire?
Just pondering the mysteries of the universe this morning.
Enjoy your coffee.
Letting go of some audiophile beliefs can be hard depending on how deeply ingrained they are. But it is possible if the individual is open minded and susceptible to suggestion. And we all know who we are, don't we? :innocent: ...ponder, ponder... sip, sip

This is a true dog-ate-my-homework story where Sebastian (my border collie mix) chewed through the left channel interconnect running from my preamp to power amp. Granted I didn't do any official testing or level-matching, but I feel my musical enjoyment didn't suffer after substituting a much cheaper set I had laying around. Hmmm... how much $$$ have I wasted in my brainwashed youth??? :spend: :duh:
 

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I once owned pair of KEF 105/3 speakers that were very efficient and played crazy-loud as advertised, but didn't really seem to "sing" until a certain power threshold was passed. I've also read about other speakers "behaving" the same way, but have no first-hand experience. Do you believe such a phenomenon exists that requires higher amplifier power for speakers that don't play well quietly?
I know there was a test done a couple years ago here where they took a normal efficiency speaker and played several different instruments through it one at a time. Here is what was said, "the most dynamic power draw was during the Thwack of a snare drum dead centre" used 250 watts into speakers that were 89 db efficient. Clearly this would tax an amplifier if it was not able to keep up.
 

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I know there was a test done a couple years ago here where they took a normal efficiency speaker and played several different instruments through it one at a time. Here is what was said, "the most dynamic power draw was during the Thwack of a snare drum dead centre" used 250 watts into speakers that were 89 db efficient. Clearly this would tax an amplifier if it was not able to keep up.
Wonder what the wattage draw is during the FURY tank scenes. my ultras are 88db so something tells me I need MO powa :)
 

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I once owned pair of KEF 105/3 speakers that were very efficient and played crazy-loud as advertised, but didn't really seem to "sing" until a certain power threshold was passed. I've also read about other speakers "behaving" the same way, but have no first-hand experience. Do you believe such a phenomenon exists that requires higher amplifier power for speakers that don't play well quietly?
As a trombone player I have heard this a lot, "sing", in the case of a trombone it is getting to a SPL level which causes the bell to ring. Different materials and thicknesses in the trombone will change how much or little a trombone will project and sing. The other factor is the venue and how much people are in the room. I have to play very differently it dress rehearsal vs a concert on a solo just because of the warm bodies in the room.

I wonder if a dead room needs more SPL to get that "sing" and if the room has too much energy it can cause your brain to go into overdrive.

Long story short, I would look at the room first before the speakers/Amp.
 

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I once owned pair of KEF 105/3 speakers that were very efficient and played crazy-loud as advertised, but didn't really seem to "sing" until a certain power threshold was passed. I've also read about other speakers "behaving" the same way, but have no first-hand experience. Do you believe such a phenomenon exists that requires higher amplifier power for speakers that don't play well quietly?
Absolutely, my B&W's did not sound good at quiet volumes, but with some power and some turnin up, they were great.
 

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I once owned pair of KEF 105/3 speakers that were very efficient and played crazy-loud as advertised, but didn't really seem to "sing" until a certain power threshold was passed.
Try the same thing with speakers that are 10-20db more efficient than the KEFs, and you will see why I say big amps are not always needed.:T
 

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As a trombone player I have heard this a lot, "sing", in the case of a trombone it is getting to a SPL level which causes the bell to ring. Different materials and thicknesses in the trombone will change how much or little a trombone will project and sing. The other factor is the venue and how much people are in the room. I have to play very differently it dress rehearsal vs a concert on a solo just because of the warm bodies in the room.

I wonder if a dead room needs more SPL to get that "sing" and if the room has too much energy it can cause your brain to go into overdrive.

Long story short, I would look at the room first before the speakers/Amp.
Now THAT is eye-opening! We can get so caught up in the audio gear and music media end of things that we forget the SOURCE. Musicians have a unique perspective that should command more attention. Thanks for sharing!

Absolutely, my B&W's did not sound good at quiet volumes, but with some power and some turnin up, they were great.
HAH! There's strength in numbers. So far we have ...errr... two. :bigsmile:
 

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Absolutely, my B&W's did not sound good at quiet volumes, but with some power and some turnin up, they were great.
I agree that there is a certain level that sounds best. but I think it is partly determined by how it is mixed.
 

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Try the same thing with speakers that are 10-20db more efficient than the KEFs, and you will see why I say big amps are not always needed.:T
My EVs are 96db efficient and at reference levels I am still running at at least half the amps output level as shown on the amps vu meters.
 

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I agree that there is a certain level that sounds best. but I think it is partly determined by how it is mixed.
That makes three :bigsmile: :bigsmile: :bigsmile:
HAH! Majority rules.
We are right and you are wrong (j/k)

I think it is curious that even though we felt that we could hear differences in some comparisons, everyone came away convinced that the differences were so small, if real, that we would all opt for the cheapest amp that had the power we need.

I will be publishing the comments on individual amp impressions in the context of the comparisons made soon.
Cheapest amp to meet needs? In terms of performance and budget, yes. For aesthetics and pride-in-ownership, maybe not so much. There's something about those trademark McIntosh analog meters that turns many a mere mortal into Pavlov's dog ...drool... but I'll never be able to afford one. Do pride in ownership or pretty lights improve the sound? No, but they may emotionally influence a listener into thinking they hear an improvement.

Can't praise you guys enough for your organization and wisdom. No doubt you take as much pride in your reports as your experiment. Eagerly but patiently awaiting :hissyfit:
 
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