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Discussion Starter #41
Or two speaker sized metal sheets two feet from the wall on each side of the speaker sending sound back to the wall. The other side of the sheet could be absorbent material. :unbelievable::rubeyes:
Of course you are joking. But it is just the kind of crazy experiment I might try. You would not believe...

Think I will stick to the electronic version this time, the cleanup will be much simpler!:bigsmile:
 

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Ah Wayne, you are the mad scientist, the Dr. Emmett Brown, of audio! Of course, only the Doc could have figured out how to build a time machine!
 

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Determine The Starting Points - The Complex Way

Option 1 - Best - No Restrictions, Start with the Speaker Positions

Starting with your room width as 3.130 units ((1 + 1.618 + 1) x (1.4 / 1.618)), a weird number, the logic follows) place the speakers spaced between the side walls using units of 0.866:1.4:0.866 (this would normally be expressed as 1:1.618:1, but we have multiplied these numbers by 1.4 / 1.618 or 0.866 in order to keep with our A = 1, B = 1.4, C = 2.4 starting point) and 1.4 units (C - A) away from the front wall (measure from the center of the tweeter). This is good for reducing room mode interaction. Use C = 2.4, which also makes A = 1.

For example, in a room 15.66 feet wide, speaker spacing would be 4.33 feet from side walls, 7 feet from the front wall, and 7 feet apart (B). The LP would be 12 feet from the front wall (C) and 5 feet from the speaker plane (A). Following the Golden Mean (1.618:1), this places the speaker positions with left/right room symmetry where they will be least affected by room modes.

This all works out in most rooms anyway. We suggest always keeping the LP at least 3 feet from the back wall and its reflections, so in some smaller rooms the A, B, and C values must be reduced, keeping the same ratios, until that 3 feet guideline is satisfied. Then the Golden Mean guidelines are no longer satisfied.

Now skip down to Make Adjustments below.

Option 2 - 2nd Best - No Restrictions, Start with the Listening Position

Place the center of head of the LP equally between the side walls, as room symmetry allows, and make the distance from the front wall - dimension C - equal to 2.4 units of measure and the distance from the back wall 1.48 units of measure. Set the distance from speaker to speaker at 1.4 units of length (dimension B), and the distance from the speaker plane to the LP at 1 unit (dimension A).

For example, if the room is 19.4 feet long, locate the listener's ears 12 feet back from the front wall (C), leaving another 7.4 feet to the back wall. The speakers will be spaced 7 feet apart (b) and the LP will be 5 feet from the speaker plane. Following the Golden Mean (1.618:1), this places the listening position with left/right room symmetry where it will be least affected by room modes.

This all works out in most rooms anyway. We suggest always keeping the speakers at least 3 feet from the side walls, so in some smaller rooms the A, B, and C values must be reduced, keeping the same ratios, until that 3 feet guideline is satisfied. Then the Golden Mean guidelines are no longer satisfied.
Hello all! If only I knew half as much as I thought. The simple way seemed simple enough, however the complex, for my simple mind needs a little more clarity with the calculations/ratios. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks
Read more: http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/two-channel-audio/71050-hts-two-channel-speaker-setup-guide-deep-soundstage.html#ixzz3IcHlpclJ
 

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Interesting...for solid rectangular rooms this should work nicely. Good stuff! Have a few questions.

In my experience, few listening rooms are solid rectangles where 3 are typically rectangular walls and one asymmetrically opened to another room. Say for example the RH wall is asymmetrical or contains some sort of non-linear feature (sloped ceiling, bay window, etc.?). What adjustments/considerations should be made? Second Q is, what effects do doors have on your scenario?
 

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Interesting...for solid rectangular rooms this should work nicely. Good stuff! Have a few questions.

In my experience, few listening rooms are solid rectangles where 3 are typically rectangular walls and one asymmetrically opened to another room. Say for example the RH wall is asymmetrical or contains some sort of non-linear feature (sloped ceiling, bay window, etc.?). What adjustments/considerations should be made? Second Q is, what effects do doors have on your scenario?
I have such a room, wall with windows on the left side, 7 ft. wide opening to the kitchen on the right. So basically, I have only one early side wall reflection point, where I placed a Lazy Boy with blankets and a pillow on the back rest, giving me a large, 4 1/2 ft. tall treatment of sorts. It traps the sound, keeping the wall/window reflection from reaching the listening position. It works well, bringing a measure of symmetry, but I still have a few channel imbalances showing in measurements. It is not terrible, but...


Not satisfied with that, and I am working with GIK Acoustics to dial in the room. Amongst the treatments I am ordering, will be a 24″ x 60″ x 4″ Free Stand Bass Trap panel for the left wall. This and the chair will help simulate the doorway on the right.

Furniture works, room treatments are better. You can build your own or get some ready made. It is best to use measurements to guide the process, and talking to an acoustician can be helpful, as well.

We have an acoustics sub forum dedicated to that purpose, if you'd like the advice of professionals here at HTS.
 

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Discussion Starter #49
Where there are doors, odd room shapes, and other such variables, they are definitely more of a factor in a more reverberant room. In a room with carpeting, any significant amount of acoustical treatment, lots of draperies, anything that gives a fair amount of sound absorption and keeps the reverb time low, I have found them to be much less of a factor, almost to the point of ignoring them.

Except, as Dennis (Tesseract) has shown with his room, eliminating asymmetrical early reflections is big, as is reflection control in general. More needs to be added to the Guide about that.

A large alcove or hallway off to one side, if it contains no acoustical treatments and has lots of reflective surfaces, would tend to distort and clutter the soundstage and imaging. There is no solution in terms of speaker positioning. If your asymmetrical situation is anything like that, the only real solution is treatment to reduce reverb time.

If your room has low reverb times and no early reflection problems, then the asymmetry might not trouble you. It is also dependent upon how picky a listener you are. For most listeners, I believe the above is a good guideline to start with.
 

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Dear Wayne,
my sound system for music is hupstair and my HT is in the basement of our house. As I reported in an other thread, your suggestion for a 2 channels made marvels downstairs .
So I decided to try it with my stereo upstairs. Again, I have more depth in the sound stage; specially with a full orchestra for instance.
Your speakers setting does not respect the isocele triangle rule that everybody recommend
It is a surprise. Difficult to explain.
 

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Discussion Starter #51
The only explanation I can think of is that those who recommend the - I think you meant equilateral triangle, beg pardon if I misunderstood - have never HEARD a truly great soundstage, which is far more engaging than good frequency response on its own.

I am tickled that you have had such success! Thanks for the feedback.
 

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Your are right, I meant equilateral triangle.
Like I said on an other thread, I am passionnate about listenning music since I am 15. At 25 I had a very good 2 channels sound system. I got married, 5 children later, no time for music; I sold it. And 6 years ago I went back to sound with HT downstairs and a 2 channels upstairs for music (not as good as the old one but quite respectfull Arcam amp, Arcam cd player and middle range B&W). I have always respected the equilateral triangle rule for the fronts thinking that it was the only way to get a good stage image.
...but now I am in NHL!!
I thank you very much to share all your research on this forum. If it was only for this change in my settings I would have been more than happy .
Wow!
...(again, forgive my english.)
 

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So I was reading this article linked from Home Theater Review, and it reminded me of this thread and the quest for superb soundstage and imaging. As I read about his experience with his soundstage falling apart, I immediately thought of Wayne and his patience in getting things set up just so for a fantastic result. Very small differences in speaker placement can make a big difference in SS&I, and this guy found that out. Interesting read.
 

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Question...

We have a 15' wide AT screen with our speakers behind it...with the horns being 3' wide each (Bass Bins are almost 5' wide, and are under the Horns) for our LCR. I currently have the L+R each angled to the MLP. The room sounds great but I usually listen to it from the 2nd row even though it was tuned from the first row.

The last few days I have been listening from the MLP, and noticed that the imaging moves when I go to get up, as does the tonality. Since my speakers are so wide, and take up the whole wall...would it be better to not angle the speakers?

I am thinking that since the first row seating is 12', and the 2nd row 17' that the sound stage might go wider if I do not angle them. If it does make the sound stage wider will it also make it less deep? All of my speakers are horns, or horn loaded including the subs.
 

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I've owned decent mid-range speakers since I was a young man way back in the fifties and I've always set them up using the speaker placement that virtually every speaker manufacturer recommended; the equilateral triangle. That is, until I started reading some of the speaker shootout material here at HTS. The first thing I noticed was that all of the speakers were setup wider and nearer to the primary listening position than I'd ever seen before. That, coupled with Wayne's excellent articles on speaker placement, got me thinking "What do you have to lose? Try some of these recommendations." Fortunately, I have the luxury of doing whatever I want (can afford) in my media room and so pulling speakers out to what appears to be the center of the room is no problem. The wife has her space and I have mine.

And so began the lengthy process of moving my Ascend Sierras slowly out into the room, moving them wider and wider and nearer and nearer to the my primary seat in fraction of an inch increments. I'll admit I began to get a little alarmed as they encroached on the room more and more. Still, there was no denying the fact that they were sounding better and better. My old standard of looking for great response soon gave way to the terrific soundstage and imaging I was hearing. By the way; as I set them wider and wider I was constantly worrying about a "hole in the middle" of the stereo image but it never happened. The stage was spread cleanly across the front and instruments and sections were exactly where they should be.

The sound of a symphony orchestra, played through a setup like this, was fantastic, with the soundstage spread wide beyond the speakers, and with pinpoint imaging. Frankly, I stopped focusing on frequency response because it was just there. The downside is that many old vinyl rock recordings were engineered so badly as to be nearly a joke, with no attempt at proper stereo imaging. But that's okay! Classical music is where I am now and I listen to little else.

And by the way; the $1,000 speaker shootout led me to my present Martin-Logan Motion 12s (many thanks to the guys involved) and, like the shootout noted, properly setup they sound wonderful! In spite of their fairly small size they do dominate the room. Ahhhh....but the sound! The Cleveland Orchestra never sounded better.

I'll admit I initially positioned them in the time-honored triangle but it didn't take long for me to realize what I was missing. At that point they began their slow, inch by inch, journey out into the room. The wife still watches TV and movies (when I'm not listening to music) and she can only shake her head, completely puzzled, at my setup. Me? I can only laugh. It was her deal when we bought this house; if she got a craft room the media room was MINE! I couldn't be happier with her arrangement.

All this is to say tha speaker manufacturer placement recommendations are compromizes that try (unsuccessfully in my view) to fit into every listening space. My Motions, placed where Martin-Logan recommended, sound just OK, nothing more. But, after working with them a day or two they now sound great. I couldn't ask for better sound within my budget.

So, my recommendation is to first con your wife into giving you free rein to setup your two-channel system however you want. How do you do that? Quid pro quo! Man! Promise her something nice if she'll remain quiet while you fill the center of your room with speakers. Nothing to it!

My music system is fairly basic:

Denon AVR3313ci AVR
Martin-Logan Motion 12 L/R
Epik Vanquish 12" sealed subwoofer

And my newest favorite: Plex Music Server (my entire music library burned to flac files)

Funny? I didn't mention and I don't listen to surround sound hardly at all anymore, except for my Sony Blu Ray player and it's good 5-channel or 7-channel sound. For me, two-channel fills the room beautifully without augmentation. And that's what careful main speaker placement has done for me.

I'm a happy old man! :eek:lddude::eek:lddude::eek:lddude:
 
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