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^^ Great post!

We'll probably be moving within the next year or so, and I am really hoping to find a place that allows me to have free reign in my listening room as you have in yours. Then I will be trying the same things, which in my present room are completely impractical even in my view.
 

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Discussion Starter #62
I've owned decent mid-range speakers since I was a young man way back in the fifties and I've always set them up using the speaker placement that virtually every speaker manufacturer recommended; the equilateral triangle. That is, until I started reading some of the speaker shootout material here at HTS. The first thing I noticed was that all of the speakers were setup wider and nearer to the primary listening position than I'd ever seen before. That, coupled with Wayne's excellent articles on speaker placement, got me thinking "What do you have to lose? Try some of these recommendations." Fortunately, I have the luxury of doing whatever I want (can afford) in my media room and so pulling speakers out to what appears to be the center of the room is no problem. The wife has her space and I have mine.

And so began the lengthy process of moving my Ascend Sierras slowly out into the room, moving them wider and wider and nearer and nearer to the my primary seat in fraction of an inch increments. I'll admit I began to get a little alarmed as they encroached on the room more and more. Still, there was no denying the fact that they were sounding better and better. My old standard of looking for great response soon gave way to the terrific soundstage and imaging I was hearing. By the way; as I set them wider and wider I was constantly worrying about a "hole in the middle" of the stereo image but it never happened. The stage was spread cleanly across the front and instruments and sections were exactly where they should be.

The sound of a symphony orchestra, played through a setup like this, was fantastic, with the soundstage spread wide beyond the speakers, and with pinpoint imaging. Frankly, I stopped focusing on frequency response because it was just there. The downside is that many old vinyl rock recordings were engineered so badly as to be nearly a joke, with no attempt at proper stereo imaging. But that's okay! Classical music is where I am now and I listen to little else.

And by the way; the $1,000 speaker shootout led me to my present Martin-Logan Motion 12s (many thanks to the guys involved) and, like the shootout noted, properly setup they sound wonderful! In spite of their fairly small size they do dominate the room. Ahhhh....but the sound! The Cleveland Orchestra never sounded better.

I'll admit I initially positioned them in the time-honored triangle but it didn't take long for me to realize what I was missing. At that point they began their slow, inch by inch, journey out into the room. The wife still watches TV and movies (when I'm not listening to music) and she can only shake her head, completely puzzled, at my setup. Me? I can only laugh. It was her deal when we bought this house; if she got a craft room the media room was MINE! I couldn't be happier with her arrangement.

All this is to say tha speaker manufacturer placement recommendations are compromizes that try (unsuccessfully in my view) to fit into every listening space. My Motions, placed where Martin-Logan recommended, sound just OK, nothing more. But, after working with them a day or two they now sound great. I couldn't ask for better sound within my budget.

So, my recommendation is to first con your wife into giving you free rein to setup your two-channel system however you want. How do you do that? Quid pro quo! Man! Promise her something nice if she'll remain quiet while you fill the center of your room with speakers. Nothing to it!

My music system is fairly basic:

Denon AVR3313ci AVR
Martin-Logan Motion 12 L/R
Epik Vanquish 12" sealed subwoofer

And my newest favorite: Plex Music Server (my entire music library burned to flac files)

Funny? I didn't mention and I don't listen to surround sound hardly at all anymore, except for my Sony Blu Ray player and it's good 5-channel or 7-channel sound. For me, two-channel fills the room beautifully without augmentation. And that's what careful main speaker placement has done for me.

I'm a happy old man! :eek:lddude::eek:lddude::eek:lddude:
Thank you for the very detailed post. I am absolutely tickled with your results. You have totally made my week.
 

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Thank you for the very detailed post. I am absolutely tickled with your results. You have totally made my week.
couldn't agree more. That was a great read and I can totally see you sitting in the room moving the spoeakers and sitting and then moving more :)
 

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Discussion Starter #64
Question...

We have a 15' wide AT screen with our speakers behind it...with the horns being 3' wide each (Bass Bins are almost 5' wide, and are under the Horns) for our LCR. I currently have the L+R each angled to the MLP. The room sounds great but I usually listen to it from the 2nd row even though it was tuned from the first row.

The last few days I have been listening from the MLP, and noticed that the imaging moves when I go to get up, as does the tonality. Since my speakers are so wide, and take up the whole wall...would it be better to not angle the speakers?

I am thinking that since the first row seating is 12', and the 2nd row 17' that the sound stage might go wider if I do not angle them. If it does make the sound stage wider will it also make it less deep? All of my speakers are horns, or horn loaded including the subs.
First I will say that for your setup, horns are probably the best choice. My experience is that they make the imaging and soundstage much less room dependent than any other kind of speaker, benefiting you by their location, close to the wall at the front of the room, and also because of the size of your room.

It might not be as clear as it should be in the Setup Guide, but horn seem to give the best sound stage and imaging with the listening position on the speaker axis, as a general rule. That means quite a bit of toe in. The situation you describe has them actually toed in a little beyond that point with you sitting in the second row. I could see that effectively making the normal rock steadiness of the soundstage that you would get with horns perhaps somewhat more susceptible to listening position variation. I would start with repositioning them for straight on axis at the listening position in the second row and see if that takes care of your problem. Even less toe in is certainly a possibility though. Clear out to the possibility of leaving them straight ahead with no toe in. I'm going to guess that you'll probably prefer a more on axis sound with some toe in, but we will be interested in hearing your conclusions.
 

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Discussion Starter #65
Question...

We have a 15' wide AT screen with our speakers behind it...with the horns being 3' wide each (Bass Bins are almost 5' wide, and are under the Horns) for our LCR. I currently have the L+R each angled to the MLP. The room sounds great but I usually listen to it from the 2nd row even though it was tuned from the first row.

The last few days I have been listening from the MLP, and noticed that the imaging moves when I go to get up, as does the tonality. Since my speakers are so wide, and take up the whole wall...would it be better to not angle the speakers?

I am thinking that since the first row seating is 12', and the 2nd row 17' that the sound stage might go wider if I do not angle them. If it does make the sound stage wider will it also make it less deep? All of my speakers are horns, or horn loaded including the subs.
First I will say that for your setup, horns are probably the best choice. My experience is that they make the imaging and soundstage much less room dependent than any other kind of speaker, benefiting you by their location, close to the wall at the front of the room, and also because of the size of your room.

It might not be as clear as it should be in the Setup Guide, but horn seem to give the best sound stage and imaging with the listening position on the speaker axis, as a general rule. That means quite a bit of toe in. The situation you describe has them actually toed in a little beyond that point with you sitting in the second row. I could see that effectively making the normal rock steadiness of the soundstage that you would get with horns perhaps somewhat more susceptible to listening position variation. I would start with repositioning them for straight on axis at the listening position in the second row and see if that takes care of your problem. Even less toe in is certainly a possibility though. Clear out to the possibility of leaving them straight ahead with no toe in. I'm going to guess that you'll probably prefer a more on axis sound with some toe in, but we will be interested in hearing your conclusions.
 

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You know what? Since I am a member of this forum, I sold my Yamy (will replace it soon) but in the mean time, I have put my B&W in my home theater system, and run it with me stereo amp Arcam A80 (which is for sale btw !). And guest what! I can wait because of a very good SS&I since I read Waynes recommandations and get rid of the equilateral triangle law !! Of course I will have a 5.1 opne day but I can wait even when I am listenning movies!!:rofl::neener::spend:
 

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You know what? Since I am a member of this forum, I sold my Yamy (will replace it soon) but in the mean time, I have put my B&W in my home theater system, and run it with me stereo amp Arcam A80 (which is for sale btw !). And guest what! I can wait because of a very good SS&I since I read Waynes recommandations and get rid of the equilateral triangle law !! Of course I will have a 5.1 opne day but I can wait even when I am listenning movies!!:rofl::neener::spend:
Thank you, another great testimony that we are not totally insane with all the things we have tried and reported around here. So often it seems that our recommendations are just met with shrugs like, you guys are just insane, everybody said to do it the triangle way. But when someone actually tries our approach and finds that it works, it is great to hear about it. Welcome to the insanely magical and satisfying soundstage and imaging club.
 

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What do you guyz think about Gedlee's suggestion for his horn speaker?
Having like speakers 10 feet apart and being further apart than that (like 14-16 feet)

As always, keeping sides clear if possible @ about 3.3 feet out and 5 feet min from the front wall.

When I use your calculation for my small room, I get a much different result.

Just asking coz I don't have my speakers yet but am planning coz that will determine the size of my projection screen :)

Understand his speakers are not dipole like I'm planning to (Spatial M4)

Thanks,
Kelvin
 

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I have horn speakers in my system and I can say that in some ways they do differ from the non horn speakers. They can be placed quite widely and still work fine but using your common sense methods of this forum, they will truly dial in quite well and give an excellent sound stage bearing in mind that one has to have the proper equipment in the first place that would allow one to decode same.

I have found that in my room, 16' wide by 23' long, I place my speakers about 9' apart and I sit 9' back. They are several feet from the wall behind them and about 2' in from the walls.
If I leave them speakers perpendicular to the front wall they have a very nice sound, kind of mellow for a horn speaker but the soundstage can be somewhat diffuse. If I toe them in to the point wherein the tweeters, not just the horn, face my ears then the high end goes away and the sound stage dies. So at this point I found a happy set up with the speakers toed in about 12° from straight and slightly elevated at the front end of the speaker cabinet and I get a wonderful stable soundstage with excellent center fill. The only real downside I notice is that on occasion singers and instruments located directly in the middle of the sound field will bloat a bit, making them sound the giant players, and this seems to be dependent on the frequency of the voice and how close they may be to the mic.

The good thing about the horns are they are so very efficient and have dynamic swings that are tremendous. The bigger horn speakers are not always very good at playing very delicate as do the Martin Logans, but once again, a minor complaint.
 

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I have horn speakers in my system and I can say that in some ways they do differ from the non horn speakers. They can be placed quite widely and still work fine but using your common sense methods of this forum, they will truly dial in quite well and give an excellent sound stage bearing in mind that one has to have the proper equipment in the first place that would allow one to decode same.

I have found that in my room, 16' wide by 23' long, I place my speakers about 9' apart and I sit 9' back. They are several feet from the wall behind them and about 2' in from the walls.
If I leave them speakers perpendicular to the front wall they have a very nice sound, kind of mellow for a horn speaker but the soundstage can be somewhat diffuse. If I toe them in to the point wherein the tweeters, not just the horn, face my ears then the high end goes away and the sound stage dies. So at this point I found a happy set up with the speakers toed in about 12° from straight and slightly elevated at the front end of the speaker cabinet and I get a wonderful stable soundstage with excellent center fill. The only real downside I notice is that on occasion singers and instruments located directly in the middle of the sound field will bloat a bit, making them sound the giant players, and this seems to be dependent on the frequency of the voice and how close they may be to the mic.

The good thing about the horns are they are so very efficient and have dynamic swings that are tremendous. The bigger horn speakers are not always very good at playing very delicate as do the Martin Logans, but once again, a minor complaint.
So you have your setup @ 9' apart and 9' back... interesting.

Gedlee suggested when using horn speakers to sit further back - having the speakers toe in and have the on axis cross in front of you so it's not aligned to your ears @ all.

Kelvin
 

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So you have your setup @ 9' apart and 9' back... interesting.

Gedlee suggested when using horn speakers to sit further back - having the speakers toe in and have the on axis cross in front of you so it's not aligned to your ears @ all.

Kelvin
That would explain why my horns sound better in the 2nd row than the front. I have been debating about not toeing them since the horns are 3' wide, and i have 3 of them behind a 15' wide AT screen. What I am thinking is that the natural angle of the Butt cheek JBLs would still intersect before the MLP. What I don't know is whether this would cause my soundstage to get wider at the expense of the depth.
 

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Thank you for bringing this up as I do respect Gedlee and his findings and I guess now that you mention it, I should try toeing them in like you said. I do not understand why that would work but what the he is a smarter man than I in this subject. As far as sitting back further from the speakers, that I have done and it does work, good sound still abounds there. However, my choices are more room dependent that anything else. I love a good sounstage second only to authentic sonics and if I sit back too far the bass becomes less solid as there is a dip in the bass. If I move the speakers further into the room so I can sit back further then I get a bump upward in the bass region and it sounds rather icky.

I guess I have settled for something in the middle. I would really love to hear his speakers some day as his horns are so well made compared to mine and would most probably work much better.

Oh and I remeasured and the speakers are 10' apart and my chair is about 10' out.
 

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That would explain why my horns sound better in the 2nd row than the front. I have been debating about not toeing them since the horns are 3' wide, and i have 3 of them behind a 15' wide AT screen. What I am thinking is that the natural angle of the Butt cheek JBLs would still intersect before the MLP. What I don't know is whether this would cause my soundstage to get wider at the expense of the depth.
I have found with mine, which are truly small compared to yours, that leaving them positioned flat to the MLP will give you the widest and in some ways nicest sonic field with sound field width for days when listening to music. On the other side, if they are far apart you may loose some solid images within the sound field between the speakers, especially the center fill. As I do like the wide sound field I also like the pinpoint accuracy within that field between the speakers so I have again compromised and toed my in 12 degrees. This way I tend to get both with a center image that is almost reach out and touchable.
 

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I have found with mine, which are truly small compared to yours, that leaving them positioned flat to the MLP will give you the widest and in some ways nicest sonic field with sound field width for days when listening to music. On the other side, if they are far apart you may loose some solid images within the sound field between the speakers, especially the center fill. As I do like the wide sound field I also like the pinpoint accuracy within that field between the speakers so I have again compromised and toed my in 12 degrees. This way I tend to get both with a center image that is almost reach out and touchable.
My MLP is 12' from the center JBL.... I only have about 6' total space between all 3 front horns (about 3' between horns). I am going to have to mark where they are and try them parallel to the AT Screen, and see what happens to the sound stage.:T
 

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Thank you for bringing this up as I do respect Gedlee and his findings and I guess now that you mention it, I should try toeing them in like you said. I do not understand why that would work but what the he is a smarter man than I in this subject. As far as sitting back further from the speakers, that I have done and it does work, good sound still abounds there. However, my choices are more room dependent that anything else. I love a good sounstage second only to authentic sonics and if I sit back too far the bass becomes less solid as there is a dip in the bass. If I move the speakers further into the room so I can sit back further then I get a bump upward in the bass region and it sounds rather icky.

I guess I have settled for something in the middle. I would really love to hear his speakers some day as his horns are so well made compared to mine and would most probably work much better.

Oh and I remeasured and the speakers are 10' apart and my chair is about 10' out.
When using Gedlee's method, it's probably why you need to use his second suggestion: multiple subwoofers in order to smooth out the peaks and dips in the low frequencies and even out the bass from the MLP as well as other LP

Kelvin
 

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My MLP is 12' from the center JBL.... I only have about 6' total space between all 3 front horns (about 3' between horns). I am going to have to mark where they are and try them parallel to the AT Screen, and see what happens to the sound stage.:T
Would love to know if you sound improves... Would feel better knowing that my small question could help someone achieve sonic nirvana :D

Kelvin
 

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When using Gedlee's method, it's probably why you need to use his second suggestion: multiple subwoofers in order to smooth out the peaks and dips in the low frequencies and even out the bass from the MLP as well as other LP

Kelvin
I agree and I do have two subs to do just that. It works well for me.

Thanks for the advice
 

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Any thoughts on a diagonal setup in a square room?
10x10x9 ish office with Dynaudio focus 110's
Thanks in advance!
Mac
Hi there Mac,
By Diagonal do you mean with the corner of the room centered between the speakers ??
 
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