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Hi there Mac,
By Diagonal do you mean with the corner of the room centered between the speakers ??
Yes, speakers are about 7' apart, 6' from Lp
Baffles are 2' from wall behind them
Sounds ok but but center image is skewed all the way left with very little sound stage.
I know these speakers can "disappear" nicely in a different room.
















Edit: it works! Just not getting a wider than speakers stage.
Imaging is very good with typical vocals with drums behind in center.
C=11'
B= 96"
A=69"
Great stuff! Thanks!!
 

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Wayne is right as usual, but might I suggest that some of the problem may result from the speakers being so close and possibly directed right at the listener ? Set up as they are seems to be the best way of doing so in the office room. It appears that it may be helpful to put some sound deadening material on the walls outside of either speaker. That may stop those early reflections that can kill side imaging.

I am going through the same issue myself and have not quite dialed it in. And maybe there is no perfect way and maybe the sound will not go beyond the edges of the speakers, but being a maniac I will keep trying.
Good Luck
 

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Yes, as Wayne and Jack have pointed out, symmetry is key. Damping first reflections is also a worthy cause, as is moving the speakers to position the baffles flush with the desk's edge. That will eliminate the desktop as a source of reflections. More importantly though, I believe you're experiencing the hole-in-the-middle effect. Locating the speakers too far apart can easily cause this, and it doesn't hurt to try something different. Experimentation is as key as symmetry.
The section entitled "Making Adjustments" in the first post offers some good pointers how to go about this. Not implying you don't already know how - just saying there might be something in there you haven't yet tried. To get a really special soundstage, we have to be willing to compromise on aesthetics and practicality. You didn't really need the desk to do actual work, did you? :)


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Yes, speakers are about 7' apart, 6' from Lp
Baffles are 2' from wall behind them
Sounds ok but but center image is skewed all the way left with very little sound stage.
I know these speakers can "disappear" nicely in a different room.
Macddmac,

Play around with this. Center your chair in that room and place it 65%-80% from the front wall. Get another TV tray and place your speakers 3-4 feet from the front wall and 7 feet apart (as long as they are 30" to 3' from the side wall.

Test out the sound and report back.
 

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Will play with it some more but i think I'm as as good as it gets givin the room limitations.
Imaging is very good to excellent depending on source quality.
Soundstage width/depth is good to very good.
I can't achieve perfect symmetry do to furnishings/ open doorway- left speaker is 4' plus from diagonall wall,
Right is 16" from sidewall.

Will build some treatments when I have some time, but I doubt that I'll realize significant improvement.
Every little bit helps thou:)
Cheers, Mac

PS- was in basement theater last night using same technique- that one is more of a work in progress as I have a sofa seriously hindering my width placement.
Great speakers down there too: PE Usher UA-721's.. Crazy wide stage- depth will be a challenge..
 

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Discussion Starter #87
I doubt that perfect symmetry is absolutely necessary. General symmetry plus a few treatments probably do the trick. A room with longer RT60 times might have "unbalanced spaciousness" effects where one side sounds bigger than the other. My own listening area is far from symmetrical, but RT60 is quite low and I do not notice anything like this. With longer RT60, absorptive treatment can help balance this effect out.

As pointed out, early reflections can really throw off the imaging and soundstage. Treatments here are very beneficial. My own rules for early reflections:
  • Less than 5 mS (of additional delay relative to the delay of the direct wavefront from speaker to LP; on an impulse response plot, it will be easy to read that relative delay directly): disruptive to image clarity, must be absorbed.
  • Between 5 mS and 15 mS: must be VERY summetrical (direction and delay time) and must be perceived as coming from the vertical line of sight from speaker to LP; if the reflections are NOT coming along the vertical line of sight from speaker to LP, or if not symmetrical, then either absorb or scatter them. Scatter them with a reflective surface pattern that does not reflect ANY of the sound directly at the LP (I have gotten into long arguments about this last point, but experiments have proven to me that it is very important for the best imaging, and I do not care what expert says otherwise, they are WRONG).
    • Example 1: ceiling reflections (flat ceiling) would be on that vertical line of sight, and might be only delayed by 8 mS or so, and would probably be highly symmetrical. They are OK, though, will not smear the image L or R, and will add a small amount of spaciousness to the sound, as well as some height info to the soundstage.
    • Example 2: in a symmetrical room, reflections off the side walls, if only a few feet from the speakers, would be symmetrical, and would fall within the 5 to 15 mS window, but would NOT be on the vertical speaker to LP line of sight, so imaging would be smeared and softened, so they are not OK. Absorb or scatter (see above).
    • Example 3: Reflective panels on the front wall on the vertical line of sight from LP to speaker could be angled so the reflections are on or very close to that line of sight and are very summetrical and fall in the specified delay range. These are OK, can enhance the soundstage and imaging. However, the natural reflection points on the front wall just inside those panels would not fall on that line of sight and would mess up the imaging. Absorb or scatter (see above) at those natural reflection points.
  • More than 15 mS: less critical. In general, better scattered, and the direction of reflection is not important, although randomized is better.
These guidelines have also been added to the Guide in the first post.
 

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I doubt that perfect symmetry is absolutely necessary. General symmetry plus a few treatments probably does the trick. A room with longer RT60 times might have "unbalanced spaciousness" effects where one side sounds bigger than the other. My own listening area is far from symmetrical, but RT60 is quite low and I do not notice anything like this. With longer RT60, absorptive treatment can help balance this effect out.

As pointed out, early reflections can really throw off the imaging and soundstage. Treatments here are very beneficial. My own rules for early reflections:
  • Less than 5 mS (of additional delay relative to the delay of the direct wavefront from speaker to LP; on an impulse response plot, it will be easy to read that relative delay directly): must be absorbed.
  • Between 5 mS and 15 mS: must be VERY summetrical (direction and delay time) and must be perceived as coming from the line of sight from speaker to LP; if the reflection is NOT coming along the line of sight from speaker to LP, or if not symmetrical, then either absorb or scatter them. Scatter them with a reflective surface pattern that does not reflect ANY of the sound directly at the LP (I have gotten into long arguments about
    this last point, but experiments have proven to me that it is very important for the best imaging, and I do not care what expert says otherwise, they are WRONG).
    • Example 1: a ceiling reflection (flat ceiling) would be on that line of sight, and might be only delayed by 8 mS or so, and would probably be highly symmetrical. It is OK, though, will not smear the image L or R, and will add a small amount of spaciousness to the sound, as well as some height info to the soundstage.
    • Example 2: in a symmetrical room, reflections off the side walls, if only a few feet from the speakers, would be symmetrical, and would fall within the 5 to 15 mS window, but would NOT be on the speaker to LP line of sight,
      so imaging would be smeared and softened, so they are not OK. Absorbe or scatter.
    • Example 3: Reflective panels on the front wall on the line of sight from LP to speaker could be angled so the reflections are on or very close to the line of sight from LP to speaker and are very summetrical and fall in the specified delay range. These are OK, can enhance the soundstage and imaging. However, the natural reflection points on the front walls just inside those panels would not fall on that line of sight and would mess up the imaging. Absorb or scatter.
  • More than 15 mS: less critical. In general, better scattered, and the direction of reflection is not important, although randomized is better.
These guidelines have also been added to the Guide in the first post.
Great stuff- I'm going to run REW in both rooms to determine what treatment would be appropriate.
Cheers, Mac
 

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Hello I'd love to hear your thoughts on how best to set up my Martin Logan Electromotions in my room. Thank you!

My set up is:
Jriver (on RPI) -> Schiit Yggy DAC -> ATI6002 amp -> ML electromotion (also using a REL S/3 sub - connected directly to the DAC).

I'd love to get some advice on how to organize my listening room. I have great sound but I'm lacking the 3D sound stage...

It is a large room (in UK standards) 32sqm - with a high ceiling (3m).
It's a dedicated listening room, though my wife still mistakes it for a living room so I can't go all crazy with room treatments and speaker placement - though I can do around 1.5m from the side and back walls easily.

My main problem, I think, is that the front wall (behind the speakers) is angled, so one speaker is closer to the back wall than the other - if I place them parallel to the sofa and the bottom wall.

What I've tried to do now is to angle the sofa to be parallel to the angled front wall and place the speakers in the same distance, again try to make them parallel to that wall. It sounds OK but I'm not getting that holographic 3D sound-stage - it's wide but not especially deep.

The room is quite resonant. Lots of empty surfaces and a wooden floor - the speakers and sub are sitting on Townshend seismic isolation platform that work very well.

I use REW and a calibrated microphone to integrate the sub - since I don't have a seperate sub channel I 'play it along' with the speakers and apply EQ (via Jriver) to both to get the response back to earth - works a treat.







Please share your thoughts.
I've tried applying the formulas in the first post and got a bit lost...

Thank you!
 

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Nearly square room with lots of reflective surfaces..add to that, the electrostatic speakers, which can have a smallish sweet spot.
Stick to the ratios mentioned in the opening post and adjust from there.
A larger thick rug, perhaps a tapestry on that fireplace wall, adjust the blinds so that they're not completely closed for some possible diffusion.
Failing that, try a diagonal layout.
Looks to be a rather live room which can pose challenges due to multiple reflective surfaces.
Try a few adjustments based on the principles layed out in the opening post first, while considering the reflective nature of the room.
Let us know what you come up with .
Cheers, Mac
 

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Just wanted to share a bit of info of some recent tests.

The center channel... behind my head is diffusion... I sit 3' off the wall... currently nothing near my projector to kill the ceiling first wave reflection for me so here is some impulses

Center Channel on all 3 tests

1. Orange line at 4.5ms is diffusion while the green/purple is a 2'x4'x4" absorption panel behind the MLP so this is the direct result of absorbing vs diffusion when you are within 3' of the back wall.

2. Green line major spike at 7.2ms is the first reflection at the ceiling part for me is behind my head on the ceiling since i'm a vaulted ceiling. The purple/orange have a significant reduction due to me placing a 2x4x4" panel above the MLP acting as a cloud. This was temporary and I was just holding it in place but shows a significant reduction at this particular spot.

I need to rethink my diffusion stuff. I'm thinking of placing absorption on any spot less than 15ms on the impulse response as it'll be easier for me to chase around the room with an absorption panel in my hands and testing to find the trouble spots. anything beyond 15ms will be diffusion IF the distance is greater than 6 feet away if it is under then I will stick to absorption.

I did some initial tests and I like the sound w/ the absorption behind the MLP better so this tells me I need to change up my back wall a bit. It's OK though since I can reuse my diffusion panels elsewhere. The spot at 2ms is probably the reflection off the floor and will test this at a later point as well.

I mainly posted this for others to clearly see the affects of aborption vs. diffusion within the critical 0-5ms and 5-15ms areas.
 

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Discussion Starter #92
You have some interesting challenges.

In this thread I discuss the setup methods I have used successfully in 2 different rooms with the very speakers you are using.

You might consider using the added reflective surfaces to bring your room and the main reflections all "back to square" in spite of the room's shape. I think it is your best shot at getting a great SS&I result.
 

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You have some interesting challenges.

In this thread I discuss the setup methods I have used successfully in 2 different rooms with the very speakers you are using.

You might consider using the added reflective surfaces to bring your room and the main reflections all "back to square" in spite of the room's shape. I think it is your best shot at getting a great SS&I result.
Thanks Mate - I did see this thread.
I'lll try following it, can I ask you where I should start placing my speakers according to your method? I tried following the method in this current thread but end up with speakers about a meter fro the listening position and ridiculously wide apart...

Also how high should the reflective panels be? I have a wife with her own ideas about aesthetics... ;-)

Thanks mate, perhaps we should move to the other thread?

Thank you!
 

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Thanks Mate - I did see this thread.
I'lll try following it, can I ask you where I should start placing my speakers according to your method? I tried following the method in this current thread but end up with speakers about a meter fro the listening position and ridiculously wide apart...

Also how high should the reflective panels be? I have a wife with her own ideas about aesthetics... ;-)

Thanks mate, perhaps we should move to the other thread?

Thank you!
IMG_20151229_141123.jpg

I am embarrassed that I did not get a better photo than this. It is of one of the two panels Sonnie Parker had built for his room. Two boards joined by piano hinge to be self-supporting and can allow any angle between the two pieces.

Each board is 16" wide (I think) - I would go 12" wide (minimum/optimum) for the back piece and 18" (min) to 24" (optimum) wide for the side piece, 3/4" or 1" thick, 4 ft high (minimum/optimum) for the ESL speakers. It can be finished nicely to be minimally obtrusive, or decorated (let your wife) as long as the surface is hard-reflective.

Placement and angles are critical, so small tack strips to control that once it has been determined are important.

My ESLs are 58" c-to-c apart (dimension B in the Guide), 49" LP to speaker plane (dimension A), and LP is 109" from the wall (dimension C). I am away from home right now, I will measure the toe-in angle when I return in a week.

Be sure to put absorptive material on all of the front wall area between the panels. It can actually be reflective (a diffuser) but only if NONE of the angles involved reflect sound directly from back of speaker to LP. Most diffusers do not accomplish this, that is why I say to make it absorptive.

With the reflective panels controlling the main rear reflections, your setup becomes independent of the front wall and you can square up your setup relative to the other three walls of the room.
 

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Hi AC

It seems you have some very near field listening going on there. Is that because of your room or do you just prefer it that way ?
I have not tried it your way because I have always had large rooms, but I think I will give it a go today.
 

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Discussion Starter #96
Mid-field, by my way of thinking, and it is mainly because of room dimensions & arrangement. I could actually place them wider but I cannot widen the placement of the reflective panels mounted on the front wall (stairway to the left, wall & hallway to the right) accordingly.

In a bigger room, I would spreqd them more.

The soundstage is much wider than the speakers, does not feel restrictive at all, and the spaciousness feels symmetrical even though the room is not (proper reflection control helps).
 

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I totally agree with your presentation, I just have not previously listened at what I thought to be relatively near field. Today is my day to do whatever I want so I will give this a try with my Tang Band home made speakers. They are easier to move :)
 

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Thanks Wayne,
I don't think the Mrs will allow me such reflective surfaces in the room (partly because they'll hid the windows)...

in any case I rearranged the speakers in a 'mid-field' set up (as per ML's extra tweak in the manual).
I'll see how it sounds. It did bring the speakers in a bit more into the room. They are now 1.82m from the front wall.

Can I ask you what method you'd use to place these ESL speakers in a room? Ignoring the reflections part?
Also what do you think about the rake angle?

Thank you!
 

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Can someone suggest a song I should listen to while doing this, with specific points in the music and what I should be listening for, i.e. where should a certain instrument sound come from etc.
 

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FInally had a chance to try the 2 channel setup recommended by Wayne. Took a bit of work as I had to move my Triton Ones from behind an acoustically transparent screen & down off a front stage. After some placement adjustments I settled for the Tritons to be 14 ft from front wall & 4 ft 6 inches from side walls. The speaker plane is 7 feet from mlp with speakers about 8 feet apart centre to centre. The first thing I noticed was the huge depth of the sound stage & strong centre. Voices were crystal clear as if there was a speaker directly in front of me. The depth extended back much further then distance between speakers. The width of the sound stage would extend to behind both speakers then extending further to the left & right.

I used Wayne's ratio's & then adjusted due to rear part of room being asymmetrical. I also toed in speakers directly at the mlp eliminating some mid/high frequency roll off.
By bringing speakers further into the room I was able to increase bass levels yielding much better results. The bass sounded much fuller. The Triton Ones have powered subs build in with a control dial on the back. When speakers are located behind acoustical screen I turn bass turn down due to proximity to front wall. They can become very boomy if you don't turn them down.

My mlp is 8ft back from tweeters but occasionally I hear music directly from right speaker. Not sure if I need to increase distance from mlp or increase distance from side walls. More tweaking to be done.

Overall very happy with results. Speaker location is however temporary as this being a theatre room speakers will go back behind acoustic screen. If I had the real estate I would definitely build a dedicated 2 channel listening room.

Thanks Wayne I appreciate all your hard work in getting this out to us.

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