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Discussion starter · #101 ·
FInally had a chance to try the 2 channel setup recommended by Wayne. Took a bit of work as I had to move my Triton Ones from behind an acoustically transparent screen & down off a front stage. After some placement adjustments I settled for the Tritons to be 14 ft from front wall & 4 ft 6 inches from side walls. The speaker plane is 7 feet from mlp with speakers about 8 feet apart centre to centre. The first thing I noticed was the huge depth of the sound stage & strong centre. Voices were crystal clear as if there was a speaker directly in front of me. The depth extended back much further then distance between speakers. The width of the sound stage would extend to behind both speakers then extending further to the left & right.

I used Wayne's ratio's & then adjusted due to rear part of room being asymmetrical. I also toed in speakers directly at the mlp eliminating some mid/high frequency roll off.
By bringing speakers further into the room I was able to increase bass levels yielding much better results. The bass sounded much fuller. The Triton Ones have powered subs build in with a control dial on the back. When speakers are located behind acoustical screen I turn bass turn down due to proximity to front wall. They can become very boomy if you don't turn them down.

My mlp is 8ft back from tweeters but occasionally I hear music directly from right speaker. Not sure if I need to increase distance from mlp or increase distance from side walls. More tweaking to be done.

Overall very happy with results. Speaker location is however temporary as this being a theatre room speakers will go back behind acoustic screen. If I had the real estate I would definitely build a dedicated 2 channel listening room.

Thanks Wayne I appreciate all your hard work in getting this out to us.

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Dwight, so sorry I missed your post. My "non-audio" life has kept me hopping recently.

I am always tickled to hear about successes like yours. Getting that huge, deep, precisely-defined soundstage is such a trip, most people have no idea what we are talking about and what they are missing. Of course, being your home theater room, you must move it back to being usable as a home theater, understood. Now that you have heard the possibilities, you can look forward to having that 2-channel or even surround music room with speakers in the middle of the floor and WAF measuring in squarely at 0.:foottap:

Thanks again for posting your results.
 
Do you think one of these would be good for aiming speakers at the MLP?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/20MM-Tactic...172286?hash=item35f54479fe:g:EDQAAOSwv~xXDfqy

My horns are 3' wide so they are not easy to aim by yourself, and a laser would help tremendously. My horns have a 90x40 degree pattern, and my MLP is 12' from the center horn. My soundstage is awesome, but I want to dial it in with measurements now instead of by eye to see if it gets even better.
 
Yeah Ron, especially for that price. I used a laser level to aim my speakers. Should work just as well.


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Thanks, I had some eBay cash so it was free, :)
 
Lasers are a great idea, especially with a speaker like yours where there is no good flat area to use for aiming a laser distance meter or laser pointer from.

I have used something very similar to what you are purchasing.
What I am planning on is making 2 uprights that would have a board connecting them, and i would clamp it on each side to the horn sides. I would then have a mount in the middle that the laser could be mounted on.

I have also thought about doing something similar for the mic... get a long board, and drill holes for the different mic positions to make the whole process of room tuning 100% repeatable.
 
Discussion starter · #108 ·
What I am planning on is making 2 uprights that would have a board connecting them, and i would clamp it on each side to the horn sides. I would then have a mount in the middle that the laser could be mounted on.

I have also thought about doing something similar for the mic... get a long board, and drill holes for the different mic positions to make the whole process of room tuning 100% repeatable.
Other than the MLP position for measurement number 1, repeatability is not important. If it makes the measurement process quicker and easier, that is worth something. You have to be very careful that the board does not introduce any reflections. For MLP, I have a mark on the dropped ceiling and use a piece of string hanging from there to get the right point for measurement 1, the mic hangs by its cable from a boom for that measurement. All other measurements are with the mic pointing up.
 
https://1drv.ms/v/s!AjTebqyTZf1mjFzt5JsmKMkHJ9jl

I am trying to share a video I made but this site doesn't seem to allow video embedding.

Reading through the guide and the reviews of the Martin Logan speakers I have rigged a system that allows me to visualize early reflection points per speaker and seat in 3D. I also rigged a system that allows me to move and place the reflection panel for the widest angle without reflecting into the speaker, per speaker and seat in 3D

Red lines are early reflection points. Dark blue line is direct sound and light blue line is manual reflection point. This setup also allows me to calculate and compare the length/distance of the sound paths on the fly.

I have done this for one speaker with 6 seats, and as visible from the picture all manual reflection paths cross each other close on the side of the speaker. As you use this point as the center you can see that the yellow reflection panels starting to form an arch like the blue panel.

Would a round panel work in reflecting the manual path towards each seat in a proper way, or does a round surface not reflect the sound back under the opposite angle in which it arrived?
 

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This is something that I yet don't fully understand. As I understand the dispersion pattern of an ESL speaker is very controlled and linear, which is claimed a good thing when it comes to room interaction. But why are we still paying much attention to early reflection points, and why do we calculate it in the same way as regular speakers? I seem the miss something here.

As shown in the picture the ML speaker panels have a 30 degree cone projection which "visually" doesn't seem to interact with the side walls. Also none of the back wave comes close to where my early reflection points for the front wall are calculated (red lines)
 

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Discussion starter · #111 ·
Nice job with the Autocad "utility," very useful.

Good questions on the projection angle of the electrostatic panels. Two factors help reduce the horizontal angle of projection.
  1. The width approaches the wavelength of HF signals that it drives, making them more directional.
  2. The dipole nature of the panel design makes them more directional.
:sweat:


I like to treat the sidewalls where first reflections from opposite the source speaker, on the R wall for reflection from the toed-in L speaker. Experience has shown this to make a difference with improved imaging.

Remember that dispersion pattern is not perfect, that there is SOME signal coming off toward the side wall, easily enough to disrupt imaging.

...why are we still paying much attention to early reflection points, and why do we calculate it in the same way as regular speakers?
It is a matter of degree. The calculations are the same, same angles, with the amount of signal being much lower. Much lower but not nonexistent.
 
This is something that I yet don't fully understand. As I understand the dispersion pattern of an ESL speaker is very controlled and linear, which is claimed a good thing when it comes to room interaction. But why are we still paying much attention to early reflection points, and why do we calculate it in the same way as regular speakers? I seem the miss something here.
We??:smile:
I use dipolar speakers also and would never "treat" the sidewalls. There is large body of scientific evidence to support this. There is zero scientific evidence to the contrary.
Here is a nice summary of why: http://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/room-reflections-human-adaptation
Floyd's book contains all the AES references to the studies that support this. This is not "his opinion". To the contrary, it is based on the established science. Much of what is bandied about on audio forums is studiophile folklore, based on sighted beliefs and "intuition" long ago discredited (like LEDE). Again, there is zero science to support such beliefs.
With 2 channel phantom center image audio, side reflections play a critical role in filling in the acoustic interference combing from the L and R speakers, increasing intelligibility and clarity of the central images. This has been double blind listening tested repeatedly. It is not "opinion".
If you wish to please your eyes or an "ETC" measurement pressure mic, treat away. If you wish to please your ears, read Floyd Tooles writings and videos, which are a nice compilation of a large body of work by many many scientists in the field of acoustics study.
Btw, a little known fact is that the highest ever rated speakers (blind, controlled, "trust your ears only" listening) during Tooles time at the NRC, was the Mirage M1, a bi-directional radiator speaker, much like yours. Properly implemented in a room, they can lead to very enjoyable sound, specifically related to spatial rendering of stereophonic/phantom center images recordings.

cheers
 
As shown in the picture the ML speaker panels have a 30 degree cone projection which "visually" doesn't seem to interact with the side walls. Also none of the back wave comes close to where my early reflection points for the front wall are calculated (red lines)
Where did this 30 degree diagram come from? It is completely unrepresentative of reality.
A typical panel speakers radiation pattern looks more like this:

Please note the frequency contour colors on right.

cheers,
 
AJ, its time for you to take a trip north to give some of us a class on the science of these things. I can read Floyd's words and they go in my eyes but somehow fall into the dark empty space in my skull reserved for stuff I dont really get. Many of us have languished under the "Old" beliefs for a long time, I guess I should learn some science.

When you coming ?? :grin2:
 
AJ, its time for you to take a trip north to give some of us a class on the science of these things. I can read Floyd's words and they go in my eyes but somehow fall into the dark empty space in my skull reserved for stuff I dont really get. Many of us have languished under the "Old" beliefs for a long time, I guess I should learn some science.



When you coming ?? :grin2:


Rofl!!! I have a similar storage space in my head! I won't say what's in there... lol
 
AJ, its time for you to take a trip north to give some of us a class on the science of these things.
I was oh so close to returning to Axpona this year, but alas...
Maybe next year if schedule allows, but I'm having a harder time each year convincing myself to go through the excruciating pain in the posterior of exhibiting cross country. Maybe I'm just getting lazier with age. :)
Was here at my friend Mikes place last weekend for the monthly club meet, couldn't convince him either :D

cheers
 
I was oh so close to returning to Axpona this year, but alas...
Maybe next year if schedule allows, but I'm having a harder time each year convincing myself to go through the excruciating pain in the posterior of exhibiting cross country. Maybe I'm just getting lazier with age. :)
Was here at my friend Mikes place last weekend for the monthly club meet, couldn't convince him either :D

cheers
I cannot imagine the trouble and expense involved in bringing your wares to Chicago from Florida. Those hotel rooms can be horrible to set up and make a proper presentation, not to mention the hundreds of folks attending. I do hope to see you again in the years to come.
 
Discussion starter · #120 ·
We??:smile:
I use dipolar speakers also and would never "treat" the sidewalls. There is large body of scientific evidence to support this. There is zero scientific evidence to the contrary.
AJ, AJ, AJ, zero?? Zero?? ZERO?? That's a pretty small number, zero, be careful how you throw it around.

NO ONE values good science more than I do. My father was a scientist, a researcher, and a pioneer in the field of remote sensing. We talked about science and research all the time. And we talked about serendipity, about new discoveries and how they are made, about not being afraid to question authority when there is good reason and good evidence to do so. In my own way, I feel that I am honoring his work and training by being willing to think out of the box.

I admit, it will depend on what you are listening for and what your listening priorities might be. Mine is the best SS&I possible, and it can be helped in some situations by some early reflection treatment with dipoles like the ESL. I have found that to be true with the ESLs in several different rooms and with varying amounts of treatment. I have experimented for endless hours with positioning and treatment and have found there to be a difference in my room. Remember that no dipole speaker is capable of ZERO interaction with the side walls of a listening room. And remember that double-blind testing of room treatment changes with near-instant A-B comparison switching time is very difficult, if not near impossible. And remember that even while we are learning from the work and studies of these men, that new science comes when people with good brains, like you and me, are not afraid to disagree and try new possibilities.

If I have misinterpreted any of your statements, please excuse me, I am not trying to be argumentative. But I stand by my work, and if someone states that I am ignoring the science, I can not sit still.

AJ - final note - I hope you know that I appreciate and respect your work and words here as well, we have had some good listening sessions together. Love ya, brother.:wink2:
 
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