HTS-X2 - an experimental N8 reflective screen mix

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Harpmaker

Discussion Starter · Nov 22, 2009

We have a number of experimental mixes in development; one that has been designated HTS-X2 has recently been tested by 1canuck2 and he will be adding info and photos to this thread.

HTS-X2 is part of a family of mixes that will run from N9 to ~N7.6. The paints used in these mixes are readily available in many, if not most, areas of the U.S. and Canada. Basically, a N6 gray paint is added to regular Cream&Sugar™ to get darker shades.

HTS-X2 is a N8 reflective screen mix.

Addendum:
This is the mix that will be called Elektra™ N8.

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Harpmaker

Discussion Starter · #41 · Dec 13, 2009

koyalo said:
Question to Harpmaker - Do you have any plan for N9 or N8.5 mix? Also I would like to use Valsper paint...do you mind giving your HTS-X2(N8) formula for Valsper paint Or should I just bring your Behr formula and Lowes staff should be able to match the colors?

First off, koyalo, welcome to the forum!

Yes, the mix series that HTS-X2 is a part of (to be called Elektra™) will run from N8.5 down to perhaps N7 (the bottom end is yet to be determined). It will be based on simply adding differing amounts of N6 gray paint to Cream&Sugar™, the more N6 paint added the darker the mix will be.

If you want a reflective N9 screen mix, this is already available in Cream&Sugar™. Check out it's thread here.

The amount of N6 paint to add to C&S™ to get Elektra™ N8.5 has yet to be determined, but it will be something close to only 1 or 1.5 fl. oz. per 48 fl. oz. of C&S™.

Please keep in mind that this thread is in the Developers Forum for a reason - the mixes are still in development.

I haven't had the N6 paint matched in Valspar paint yet, but I understand that Lowe's should have no trouble making it using the Behr tint formula, it all depends on the person behind the paint counter at Lowe's.

I am new member to this forum and very much inspired by your HTS-X2(N8) formula, its result and its simplicity. I would like to prepare DIY screen based on your formula but looking for N9 or N8.5 mix. My PJ is Mitsubishi HC3800 and I am not sure if N8 is too dark for it or not. My PJ is in basement and I am covering all my window to block all ambient light. Right now I am projecting on white wall but wanted to try out something different and better using your formula.

Are all of your walls in the projection room painted white? How large is your screen?
Your PJ is a bright one so more likely than not a N8 screen would work for you depending on how large your screen is.

Appreciate your time and efforts. Keep up the good work!!!

And we appreciate your taking the time to inquire into our screen mixes. :T

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koyalo

· #42 · Dec 14, 2009

Harpmaker said:
Are all of your walls in the projection room painted white? How large is your screen?
Your PJ is a bright one so more likely than not a N8 screen would work for you depending on how large your screen is.

Yes all walls are white right now including ceiling. I am first planning to prepare screen then later paint walls with dark color. I may left ceiling white for now.

I am projecting from approx. 15 ft and my screen size is 110 inch 16:9.

Which gray mix do you suggest for me? N8 or N8.5 or N9?

Appreciate your reply and suggestion! I will check out other links suggested by you as well.

-K

Harpmaker

Discussion Starter · #43 · Dec 14, 2009

koyalo said:
Yes all walls are white right now including ceiling. I am first planning to prepare screen then later paint walls with dark color. I may left ceiling white for now.

I am projecting from approx. 15 ft and my screen size is 110 inch 16:9.

Which gray mix do you suggest for me? N8 or N8.5 or N9?

Appreciate your reply and suggestion! I will check out other links suggested by you as well.

-K

With your PJ and screen size you are getting about 16 fL. of image brightness on your screen. This is enough to easily use a N8 screen even in eco mode. This is actually a bit more brightness than 1canuck2 has with his current setup, and he too went from a white screen to HTS-X2. He has been very satisfied with the white levels from the HTS-X2 screen while reaping the benefits of blacker blacks and richer colors from the gray screen. I would recommed a N8 screen.

I know this may seem like I am "straddling the fence", but some people just like a brighter image than others even at the cost of less image contrast. There is nothing wrong with this and if you fall in this group then a lighter N8.5 or N9 might be what you want, but I know I personally would prefer the N8.

Something I forgot to ask is how you will use your screen. Will you be mainly watching movies with all room lights out or do you watch a lot of sports with some room light on so people can safely move around without tripping? The less light in the room the lighter your screen can be, but if you need to have any other lights on a darker screen helps maintain image contrast.

I hope to get to a Lowe's store in the next several days so I might be able to get the tint formula for a N6 gray in Valspar. It will take longer to find exactly how much to add to C&S™ to make a N8.5 mix.

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1canuck2

· #44 · Dec 14, 2009

I went from a white Kilz2 screen (124" diag) to the N8 formula here and there were no negatives whatsoever from my perspective. Its not a super dark screen surface (its actually quite an attractive colour) and the image projected is plenty bright.

When I first started looking at DIY formulas, I was leaning towards an N8.5 or N9, partly out of fear that N8 would be too dark. I concluded that I was "wimping" out and should probably just stick with white if that was my fear.

If you do a calibration on your PJ after painting the screen, I am confident that you will be happy with the results at an N8 based on your PJ specs. I can honestly find no negative that I feel is a trade-off for the positive. My blacks are blacker and my whites still seem white (check out my Bolt screen shots). The colours are very rich (check out my Nemo screen shot). If you want to see more pics of my theatre, check out my PhotoBucket album. From page 3 there are shots of my colour scheme, you can see I have a white ceiling and reasonably light brown on the other walls, I just painted my screen wall a dark chocolate brown.

We also play Wii/Xbox with the wall sconces on but dimmed, and the image still looks excellent. Providing you have good ambient light control for daylight especially, I don't think you'll regret going N8. Some folks who went N8 later go N7... I am not a professional by any stretch, but my eye tells me I made the right decision.

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koyalo

· #45 · Dec 14, 2009

Harpmaker said:
Something I forgot to ask is how you will use your screen. Will you be mainly watching movies with all room lights out or do you watch a lot of sports with some room light on so people can safely move around without tripping? The less light in the room the lighter your screen can be, but if you need to have any other lights on a darker screen helps maintain image contrast.

I use my PJ most of for movie watching and some TV shows. No game playing as of now but I may buy XBOX soon. It's a basement room and only one small window which I have covered brown paper from a box. So it's completely dark even during day. I will need some light later on when I buy XBox to see remote buttons but not for now.

Harpmaker said:
I hope to get to a Lowe's store in the next several days so I might be able to get the tint formula for a N6 gray in Valspar. It will take longer to find exactly how much to add to C&S™ to make a N8.5 mix.

Really appreciate your efforts. I have seen 1canuck2's screen images and they are very impressive in contrasts, whites and colors. No doubt N8 would be a great choice for my needs.

Thanks, K

koyalo

· #46 · Dec 14, 2009 (Edited)

1canuck2 said:
If you do a calibration on your PJ after painting the screen, I am confident that you will be happy with the results at an N8 based on your PJ specs. I can honestly find no negative that I feel is a trade-off for the positive. My blacks are blacker and my whites still seem white (check out my Bolt screen shots). The colours are very rich (check out my Nemo screen shot). If you want to see more pics of my theatre, check out my PhotoBucket album. From page 3 there are shots of my colour scheme, you can see I have a white ceiling and reasonably light brown on the other walls, I just painted my screen wall a dark chocolate brown.

I am going to paint my walls with dark colour too but not now in Canadian winter!!

There is no doubt about picture quality especially for movie watching from your screenshots. They are probably the best screenshots I have ever seen from someone's projector screen!! :T

A brilliant formula which produces awesome results!!!

I agree. Re-calibration is a must once we have new screen. How did you do your calibration? Did you use any special like "spears and munsil" disc?

-K

Harpmaker

Discussion Starter · #47 · Dec 14, 2009

koyalo said:
I use my PJ most of for movie watching and some TV shows. No game playing as of now but I may buy XBOX soon. It's a basement room and only one small window which I have covered brown paper from a box. So it's completely dark even during day. I will need some light later on when I buy XBox to see remote buttons but not for now.

It's best to plan for ambient lighting if there is ever a chance you will need to watch your screen under such conditions otherwise you will lose image contrast and color vibrancy when you have to turn some light on to safely move around the room or to see game controls.

Really appreciate your efforts. I have seen 1canuck2's screen images and they are very impressive in contrasts, whites and colors. No doubt N8 would be a great choice for my needs.

I had my N6 sample color-matched at Lowe's today. I'll post the tint formula tomorrow after I check how neutral it is. On a bad note, the paint guy at Lowe's didn't have a clue how to convert the Behr tint formula for use with Valspar paints. They can match Behr paint colors by name, but apparently not by just the tint formula itself. Bummer.

Thanks, K

No problem! :T

koyalo

· #48 · Dec 15, 2009

Harpmaker said:
I had my N6 sample color-matched at Lowe's today. I'll post the tint formula tomorrow after I check how neutral it is. On a bad note, the paint guy at Lowe's didn't have a clue how to convert the Behr tint formula for use with Valspar paints. They can match Behr paint colors by name, but apparently not by just the tint formula itself. Bummer.

Really appreciate your efforts. Your dedication is flawless... I wonder where do you get your inspiration from? :clap:

Someone in another thread mentioned similar experience from Lowe's.

Thanks, K

Harpmaker

Discussion Starter · #49 · Dec 15, 2009

koyalo said:
Really appreciate your efforts. Your dedication is flawless... I wonder where do you get your inspiration from? :clap:

I'm just one of those people that find all this stuff extremely fascinating and also enjoy sharing what I find out about screen performance with others. I found kindred spirits in the other moderators here in the Screens forum.

As far as I know, we are the only forum that is approaching screen performance from a scientific aspect and actually measuring screen attributes to the same standards as the commercial screen companies do. There is so much misinformation out there on how screens work it's sad.

Someone in another thread mentioned similar experience from Lowe's.

I must have missed that one or simply forgotten it. The guy I talked to at Lowe's actually is quite knowledgeable about paints so if he was stumped I doubt any Lowe's store could recreate a Behr color just from the tint formula, which actually makes sense since different paint companies use different tints to comprise their colors. I was hoping that since all the paint stores I am familiar with use the same brand of "color computer" hardware and software (X-rite) that they could translate from one brand's tint formula to another's... guess not.

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Harpmaker

Discussion Starter · #50 · Dec 15, 2009

The sample of the Valspar match for a N6 gray cured enough so I could get a spectro reading and it isn't good. It is one of the few sample misreads I've gotten at Lowe's. I'll try again next time I get to a Lowe's. I hope to try the other Lowe's store that is "near" me (if you can call 35 miles away near - yeah, I live in the boonies), but it might not be in the near future due to the holidays coming up. There is a slim chance I might be able to do it tomorrow "if the creek don't rise".

This is a good example however of how one can't use their eyes to match colors accurately. Only the most discerning eye can see any color difference in the N6 sample and the Valspar match even when dry and side-by-side. When paint is still wet there is no way to accurately judge it's color to the tolerances we need for screens no matter how much "experience" you have. A good guess really isn't good enough.

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koyalo

· #51 · Dec 16, 2009

Harpmaker said:
The sample of the Valspar match for a N6 gray cured enough so I could get a spectro reading and it isn't good. It is one of the few sample misreads I've gotten at Lowe's. I'll try again next time I get to a Lowe's. I hope to try the other Lowe's store that is "near" me (if you can call 35 miles away near - yeah, I live in the boonies), but it might not be in the near future due to the holidays coming up. There is a slim chance I might be able to do it tomorrow "if the creek don't rise".

This is a good example however of how one can't use their eyes to match colors accurately. Only the most discerning eye can see any color difference in the N6 sample and the Valspar match even when dry and side-by-side. When paint is still wet there is no way to accurately judge it's color to the tolerances we need for screens no matter how much "experience" you have. A good guess really isn't good enough.

I think it would be better if I go with Behr as it was tested by you and 1canuck2 and results are solid. I will have to leave my affection for Valsper on side for my screen at least.

Enjoy your holidays and have fun with family!!

Happy Holidays!

-K

Harpmaker

Discussion Starter · #52 · Dec 16, 2009

koyalo said:
I think it would be better if I go with Behr as it was tested by you and 1canuck2 and results are solid. I will have to leave my affection for Valsper on side for my screen at least.

Enjoy your holidays and have fun with family!!

Happy Holidays!

-K

Thanks K. but don't give up hope just yet. Check back tomorrow evening. I will be getting a Valspar formula for N6, it's just a matter of time.

As I just mentioned in another thread, the Behr #1850 paint that is specified for C&S™ #2 and #3 seems to be discontinued and the only cans left are the ones in inventory. Currently, the only interior latex enamel from Behr is their ULTRA paint (I think it's number is #1750), but I see no reason it shouldn't work for making C&S™ as well. I may get a quart of it tinted to make C&S™ #3 tomorrow too.

1canuck2

· #53 · Dec 16, 2009

I'm a big Benjamin Moore fan (ulti-matte FTW), and the last time I used Behr for house painting I was not a fan, but this formula worked well for me with Behr as the base.

I went to buy the Behr the week after they'd pulled it from the shelf in my local HD. I had to drive to two different HD's to get the last remaining cans in the city... They have a replacement product that includes primer, but I don't know if Harp has had a look at them yet...

Harpmaker

Discussion Starter · #54 · Dec 16, 2009

1canuck2 said:
I went to buy the Behr the week after they'd pulled it from the shelf in my local HD. I had to drive to two different HD's to get the last remaining cans in the city... They have a replacement product that includes primer, but I don't know if Harp has had a look at them yet...

Nope, not yet. Will get some today it the opportunity presents itself. I see no reason why the new Behr paint wouldn't work for our screen mixes since they don't depend on a large amount of translucency to work as some other screen mixes do.

Screen translucency is a two-edged sword in that while it allows any reflective particles in the mix to be more visible below the surface of the paint (which our mixes already achieve to a point since no paint we have found so far is totally opaque) it will soften and blur the projected image if carried too far. This is a concern with todays high definition PJ's. Back in the day when most PJ's were low resolution and/or had a visible "screen door effect" where you saw a grid pattern in the image if it got too large or you sat too close to the screen, those overly translucent mixes helped to give a better image due to their blurring effect. Those days are pretty much gone and those mixes are so yesterday. :bigsmile:

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Harpmaker

Discussion Starter · #55 · Dec 17, 2009

OK, you're not going to believe this... I did get to the other Lowe's store today and had my N6 sample color-matched again and even though the tint formula was different than the match I got at the other Lowe's it STILL isn't right! :hissyfit: The good news is that one or two more tries should get the correct color. I can only assume that there is a bug of some kind in Lowe's color-matching software; it isn't off color enough for most people to care, but when you're dealing with the level of precision that we are it does matter.

I also got to a Home Depot and now have a tint formula for N6 gray in a 8 fl. oz. sampler. This would do for making the Elektra™ N8.5 and Elektra™ N8 (also called HTS-X2) mixes. For making the darker Elektra™ mixes you would need to get a full quart of N6.

Even though this sampler is not the Behr flat latex Enamel it will do for coloring these Elektra™ mixes since relatively little needs to be added to C&S™ to darken it to the N8.5 and N8 shades.

Code:

[B]N6 match in Behr Premium Plus ULTRA Interior/Exterior Flat 8 fl. oz. sampler Medium Base #UL204:[/B]
Tint:
      oz.     348 oz.
B -  0        98
C -  0        20
F -  0          5

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koyalo

· #56 · Dec 18, 2009

So what would be final formula for 8.5. Sorry my question may be too dumb but I am new in understanding the color code but appreciate if you can give complete 8.5 formula with N6, C&S + Metallic Silver for my 110 inch screen.

How much mix should I prepare?

Thanks, K

1canuck2

· #57 · Dec 18, 2009

If you look back to post 41 in this thread, you'll see Harp hasn;t got the final formula for N8.5 yet. But, why not just go for N8, your PJ has the lumens to do it, esp. at your proposed screen size.

As for how much, you'll probably end up with ~50-52 fl oz which will be plenty to do three coats (my recommendation) and have some left over.

You'll need a quart of Behr #1850 (or equivalent) tinted for C&S plus 16 fl. oz. of Craft Smart metallic Silver. You'll be adding some amount of N6 to that. If you go for N8, it will be 6 fl. oz., if you are set on the N8.5 it will be less (I think Harp alluded to 1-2 fl oz).

There's not much point in trying to make less than this since:
You'll have to buy the 1850 in a quart as anything smaller won't be enough.
The Craft paint comes in 16 fl oz, so is easy to add (no measuring required).
The only thing to measure is the N6. You could get away with buying one of the 8 fl oz sample pots and save a little cost their.
The beauty of this formula for me was how easy it was to mix. You will also add ~2 fl oz of distilled water (use it to rinse out the containers and thin the paint a little).

Trying to mix less than this will not save you any money since you'd have to buy more than one sample pot of the 1850, which is relatively more costly than a quart (per volume), plus you'll have more complicated measuring to do.

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Harpmaker

Discussion Starter · #58 · Dec 18, 2009

Your question isn't dumb, K. Never be afraid to ask questions here. :T Things like color tint codes and formulae can be hard to grasp. We try to put our tint formulae in a form that can be printed out and handed to paint store personnel to have the paint mixed (although Lowe's wouldn't know what to do with a Home Depot formula). This refers to colors like the N6 gray and not a screen mix such as Cream&Sugar™ or Black Widow™, those have to be mixed by you.

I don't have a mix formula for Elektra™ N8.5 yet, but I could probably have one ready in 3 or 4 days. I know about how much N6 paint would have to be added to Cream&Sugar™ to make it, but I have to test a few samples to make sure.

As for how much mix to prepare, I suggest about 1 fl. oz. of mix per square foot of screen surface. Multiply the width of your screen in inches by the height of your screen in inches and divide that number by 144 to get total square feet. It's better to have too much than not enough.

The standard C&S™ mix makes 48 fl. oz. to which is added the N6 paint. In the case of a N8.5 Elektra™ mix I doubt more than 2 fl. oz. of N6 would be added to that 48 oz.. This should be more than enough for your 110" screen.

I'll post the complete formula for Elektra™ N8.5 when I have it ready. :T

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koyalo

· #59 · Dec 18, 2009

Harpmaker said:
Your question isn't dumb, K. Never be afraid to ask questions here. :T Things like color tint codes and formulae can be hard to grasp. We try to put our tint formulae in a form that can be printed out and handed to paint store personnel to have the paint mixed (although Lowe's wouldn't know what to do with a Home Depot formula). This refers to colors like the N6 gray and not a screen mix such as Cream&Sugar™ or Black Widow™, those have to be mixed by you.

I don't have a mix formula for Elektra™ N8.5 yet, but I could probably have one ready in 3 or 4 days. I know about how much N6 paint would have to be added to Cream&Sugar™ to make it, but I have to test a few samples to make sure.

Thank you...really appreciate it!

Harpmaker said:
As for how much mix to prepare, I suggest about 1 fl. oz. of mix per square foot of screen surface. Multiply the width of your screen in inches by the height of your screen in inches and divide that number by 144 to get total square feet. It's better to have too much than not enough.
:T

You make complex things so simple to understand for newbie like me!! :clap:

- K

Harpmaker

Discussion Starter · #60 · Dec 21, 2009

I have the N8.5 mix figured out and will be posting it tomorrow evening after I double check some things. :T

I'll be starting another thread on it.

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