Define "worth." Nobody can decide that but you. I can tell you this, movie theaters would have ZERO projectors in them today if they could get a bright LED direct-view screen at an attractive price. Projection cannot even remotely reveal how much better HDR is than SDR AND with the light output so limited compared to LED/LCD TVs and to OLED TVs. Projection is dying and as soon as it can be replaced in theaters economically, projectors will disappear from cinemas. Only direct-view LED screens can provide the luminance required to produce the larger color space supported by UHD/HDR. And you really need to have the display output 1000 nits or more for peak white for HDR to look impressive. A 2000 lumen projector won't even get you to 200 nits. Consumer flat panel TVs can produce 600 nits to 3000 nits or even a little more than 3000 nits in some newer models. In a movie theater, the projector can't typically deliver more than about 75 nits. If you try to make projection as bright as bright flat panel TVs, all the extra light reflects into the room and back onto the screen making shadows and blacks look milky and distracting. I have a fairly bright laser-phosphor projector that sells for 5-figures. I don't even turn it on anymore after seeing how much better an 85-inch 4K TV capable of 3000 nits looks compared to that projector. Some people are so hung up on having a 10-foot wide screen, they ignore all the presentation quality lost during projected video vs. flat-screen video. For them, nothing matters more than having a big image. You can have the same viewing experience sitting 8 feet from an 85-inch diagonal flat screen TV and an 11-12 foot viewing distance of a 120-inch wide screen. In both setups, the screen will appear to be the same size. Summarizing: circa $3000 for an 85-inch LED/LCD flat panel TV versus $26,000 laser phosphor projector and the $3000 TV wins by a landslide. $3000 TV with 3000 nits peak white versus projector with 1.3 gain screen and 200 nit projector and the flat screen TV wins easily.
Is it worth moving to UST from Sony 40es long throw?
starting again in new house. Currently have a Sony on white screen which drops down in front of daytime TV. My buyer wants to keep it so a fresh start for me.
has to be lcd as see rainbows so UST would be Epsom laser model
can still get the Sony or possibly Epsom 5050
daytime covered by TV.
would an UST be an upgrade?
would need a drop down screen
centre speaker placement is a problem with UST
has to be lcd as see rainbows so UST would be Epsom laser model
can still get the Sony or possibly Epsom 5050
daytime covered by TV.
would an UST be an upgrade?
would need a drop down screen
centre speaker placement is a problem with UST
1 - 7 of 7 Posts
While I know the stats, I've always wondered how 3000nits doesn't have the same effect as my Epson 3LCD 6010 and 5040. When my 106' gets bright I often squint from the brightness. While I understand all the PQ issues between everything as a retired calibrator and understand the visual differences between the two formats of viewing, I've never understood how making the image brighter in a dark room would be a good thing.Define "worth." Nobody can decide that but you. I can tell you this, movie theaters would have ZERO projectors in them today if they could get a bright LED direct-view screen at an attractive price. Projection cannot even remotely reveal how much better HDR is than SDR AND with the light output so limited compared to LED/LCD TVs and to OLED TVs. Projection is dying and as soon as it can be replaced in theaters economically, projectors will disappear from cinemas. Only direct-view LED screens can provide the luminance required to produce the larger color space supported by UHD/HDR. And you really need to have the display output 1000 nits or more for peak white for HDR to look impressive. A 2000 lumen projector won't even get you to 200 nits. Consumer flat panel TVs can produce 600 nits to 3000 nits or even a little more than 3000 nits in some newer models. In a movie theater, the projector can't typically deliver more than about 75 nits. If you try to make projection as bright as bright flat panel TVs, all the extra light reflects into the room and back onto the screen making shadows and blacks look milky and distracting. I have a fairly bright laser-phosphor projector that sells for 5-figures. I don't even turn it on anymore after seeing how much better an 85-inch 4K TV capable of 3000 nits looks compared to that projector. Some people are so hung up on having a 10-foot wide screen, they ignore all the presentation quality lost during projected video vs. flat-screen video. For them, nothing matters more than having a big image. You can have the same viewing experience sitting 8 feet from an 85-inch diagonal flat screen TV and an 11-12 foot viewing distance of a 120-inch wide screen. In both setups, the screen will appear to be the same size. Summarizing: circa $3000 for an 85-inch LED/LCD flat panel TV versus $26,000 laser phosphor projector and the $3000 TV wins by a landslide. $3000 TV with 3000 nits peak white versus projector with 1.3 gain screen and 200 nit projector and the flat screen TV wins easily.
With HDR, you SHOULD never see a 100% white screen... EVER. It would be uncomfortably bright. Instead, with HDR content, think of all the image information being displayed happening in the range of 0% to 50% white (or thereabouts). The brighter light available from 51% white to 100% white is there for 2 things... realistic spectral highlights from chandeliers, from reflections on chrome, from reflections off of the surface of water and other things that we encounter on bright sunny days. The second thing the light from 51% to 100% is used for is to enable the TV to reproduce the larger color space supported by UHD/HDR. There is so little dynamic range in projectors because of their limited light output capabilities that projected images just can't have the snap or range of colors, even when the projector does "everything right" in terms of creating UHD/HDR images. The projected images get horrible if the projector makes as much light as a bright flat-screen TV because of the fearsome amount of light reflected into the room contaminates the screen making black impossible to achieve. The exception would be a dimly lit scene with the entire screen at 20% white or less where the projector wouldn't be reproducing any super-bright light. For example, if you have a flat screen TV with 1000 nits for peak white and a second TV with 3000 nits, the images on the 3000 nit flat scree should NOT be brighter than the images from the 1000 nit TV. But the 3000 nit TV will make realistic spectral highlights and the color space will be larger than the 1000 nit TV's color space. When calibrating with with test patterns, the 3000 nit display will produce more luminance in the steps above 50% white than the 1000 nit display. But the 2 TVs should make images that look very similar if you were to use only 0%-50% white to reproduce images. The HDR magic and expanded color gamut live above 50% white. These new TVs with lots of peak luminance capability use their light differently that SDR displays.\
I think we " squint from the brightness" because we are in a dark room not in more ambient light conditions where you would be watching a TV. It is all a matter of personal preference. I just had 4 relatives over to watch Top Gun Maverick with my Epson 5030ub on a 10' screen. Da Wiz is probably having a fit but it DID really impress them and with our eyes adjusted to the darkened room, it was definitely bright enough to enjoy and there were many compliments and no complaints. My setup is similar to Pacemaker 1000 I have a 80" LED TV that I watch for "normal" viewing and my screen drops down in front of the TV when I have company over to watch a movie. I have a friend that has a new 85" TV and we watched a movie at a distance of 8' and frankly, I didn't like it. I prefer to sit further back from the screen with both the TV and projector. I am totally happy with my setup, it certainly fulfills my needs. The TV's you see at Best Buy and other box stores usually have the TV's set at full brightness so that they really "pop" for the customer. At those settings, the TV's life is greatly reduced. My Epson 5030up has about 800 lumens in Cinema mode but in the darkened room, it shows a great picture and the large screen is nice for the 2.4:1 movie formats that movie producers seem to be using most of the time. Call me a dinosaur but I'm a happy dinosaur.While I know the stats, I've always wondered how 3000nits doesn't have the same effect as my Epson 3LCD 6010 and 5040. When my 106' gets bright I often squint from the brightness. While I understand all the PQ issues between everything as a retired calibrator and understand the visual differences between the two formats of viewing, I've never understood how making the image brighter in a dark room would be a good thing.
Very good point about squinting because the ambient light is off.
Squinting in a dark room... this is why Calibrators setup the TV or projector differently for SDR and HDR. For projected SDR, 100% white should measure 12 to 20 fL to follow SMPTE guidelines. With a brand new projection lamp, you can setup for 20 fL and by the time the light output falls to around 12 fL, it will be time to shop for a new projection lamp.
With HDR content, you make ~20 fL your 50% white level and set your 100% white level to whatever your projector can deliver. There are many variables including whether you want to use Eco mode for the projection lamp, normal mode or bright mode, for example. In HDR, 50% white is kind of the same spot in the luminance range as 100% white in SDR. That keeps UHD/HDR from laser-blasting the room with bright light.
In those Target commercials with the white screen with the red Target logo, your HDR capable TV should not display those bright Target ads at 100% white... instead, that white background should be no brighter than about 50% white. I put a 100% white HDR pattern on-screen once just to see what it was light... the TV could output around 700 fL for 100% white and it was unbearably bright. Like car headlights bright.
With HDR content, you make ~20 fL your 50% white level and set your 100% white level to whatever your projector can deliver. There are many variables including whether you want to use Eco mode for the projection lamp, normal mode or bright mode, for example. In HDR, 50% white is kind of the same spot in the luminance range as 100% white in SDR. That keeps UHD/HDR from laser-blasting the room with bright light.
In those Target commercials with the white screen with the red Target logo, your HDR capable TV should not display those bright Target ads at 100% white... instead, that white background should be no brighter than about 50% white. I put a 100% white HDR pattern on-screen once just to see what it was light... the TV could output around 700 fL for 100% white and it was unbearably bright. Like car headlights bright.
1 - 7 of 7 Posts
Home Theater Forum and Systems
A forum community dedicated to home theater owners and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about home audio/video, home theaters, troubleshooting, projects, DIY’s, product reviews and more!
Full Forum Listing
Top Contributors this Month
View All
RobKnapp
12 Replies
briannarichardson2
5 Replies
Da Wiz
4 Replies
Recommended Communities
