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Elite Shackster
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Ok, I just got these directly from the JL Audio. :cool: It looks to be a very good performer.

- 1 meter GP measured from the front baffle (so you need to SUBTRACT 6dB when comparing to 2m GP)
- normal sine waves (i.e. no bursts)









 

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Re: Which subwoofers would you like to see tested?

I get the feeling this thing is pretty overhyped. :spend: :sick: :)
So much for feelings:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...l-audio-fathom-f113-ground-plane-results.html

This sub is pretty much what I've been trying to say for years. Small, stackable, high powered sealed, EQ'd sub done right. That means a great amp and driver with good quality, accurate signal shaping.

No hype, just what's possible to do.

At normal listening levels, this sub (or multiples of it, to meet room size/LP distance requirements) will sound as good as anything available.

I hope to add to the list of possibilities in a separate thread soon, as I believe that I have a bit more experience than JLAudio in this specific arena, but...my jat's off to JL. This F-113 is a great subwoofer, no matter how you slice it.

Great stuff, Ilk:bigsmile:

Bosso
 

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Re: Which subwoofers would you like to see tested?

Ehhh. Better than I was expecting, but it's ~13db down at 20hz and overpriced in my opinion. As KG said a while back, as long as you are slightly handy, there really isn't a good reason not to go DIY. But this isn't the DIY section.
 

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Ehhh. Better than I was expecting, but it's ~13db down at 20hz and overpriced in my opinion. As KG said a while back, as long as you are slightly handy, there really isn't a good reason not to go DIY. But this isn't the DIY section
You're always looking only at the maximum output numbers :crying:

The graph at 104dB, 2M-GP, which is very high output for the small subwoofer buyer, is down 2dB at 20Hz. The higher output graphs show a 12dB/octave slope, as it should be, and the difference is useful for headroom in music transients, also as it should be.

There are also other curve settings available via the E.L.F. trim control on the front panel. (I wish they would have included some sweeps at various positiions of this control in stead of only dupilcating TN's test because it's a significant feature).

The Ref/Variable gain selection is also a great feature.

I also wish they had done some sweeps to verify the LP points/slopes accuracy.

This is simply outstanding performance in it's class...period. I'm here to tell ya, if any DIYer can match this performance in a 1X15" sealed sub, I'd like to shake his/her hand.

Ilk...I've been meaning to ask you: When the compression graphing is done as JL has done it in these graphs, IOW by a series of single-tone points, would there be significance in comparing this to sweeps in that the sweeps should show the difference THD makes between the two methods, or would the THD not influence the upper range of the sweep graph vs the single point graph?

I hope you get to measure this sub, as tests of it's unique features would be very cool info.

Bosso
 

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Elite Shackster
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Discussion Starter #5
This is simply outstanding performance in it's class...period. I'm here to tell ya, if any DIYer can match this performance in a 1X15" sealed sub, I'd like to shake his/her hand.
I agree. It's simply amazing how much performance they've pushed out of a such a small box and by using only a single 13.5" driver. It pretty much matches or slightly surpasses the SVS Plus/2 (20 Hz tune) in 20-40 Hz range, and surpasses it by 3-6 dB anywhere else.

Ilk...I've been meaning to ask you: When the compression graphing is done as JL has done it in these graphs, IOW by a series of single-tone points, would there be significance in comparing this to sweeps in that the sweeps should show the difference THD makes between the two methods, or would the THD not influence the upper range of the sweep graph vs the single point graph?
It depends of the subwoofer. Some subs are more tolerant to longer test signals (like 30s sweeps), but some are prone to heat up during them. That of course adds compression and THD. It is a matter of VC and amp cooling how well the sub handles the longer test signals. If I'd had to take a wild guess, I'd say it doesn't really matter how these JL Audio monsters are tested, they will always show similar performance.

I hope you get to measure this sub, as tests of it's unique features would be very cool info.

Bosso
Me too. Too bad that the 230V versions are due late 2007.
 

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>>>It pretty much matches or slightly surpasses the SVS Plus/2 (20 Hz tune) in 20-40 Hz range, and surpasses it by 3-6 dB anywhere else.<<<


If measured the same way as the JL(short term sine wave), I think you'll find the maximum output capabilities of the PB12plus/2 to be much higher than cited in your test posted elsewhere on this site Ilkka. In our tests, the current PB12plus/2(20hz mode) is around 115dB from 40hz and up(2 meter with a 10% thd limit). 20hz is around 104, 25hz is around 110, and 31hz is around 112.

We might be able to have Ed Mullen measure the THD/SPL to see how his data correlates to yours(you both use very similar gear).

Tom V.
SVS
 

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Elite Shackster
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Discussion Starter #7
>>>It pretty much matches or slightly surpasses the SVS Plus/2 (20 Hz tune) in 20-40 Hz range, and surpasses it by 3-6 dB anywhere else.<<<


If measured the same way as the JL(short term sine wave), I think you'll find the maximum output capabilities of the PB12plus/2 to be much higher than cited in your test posted elsewhere on this site Ilkka. In our tests, the current PB12plus/2(20hz mode) is around 115dB from 40hz and up(2 meter with a 10% thd limit). 20hz is around 104, 25hz is around 110, and 31hz is around 112.

We might be able to have Ed Mullen measure the THD/SPL to see how his data correlates to yours(you both use very similar gear).

Tom V.
SVS
Unfortunately I find that very hard to believe Tom. Whether one uses 30s or 5s sines doesn't really matter at the upper end/beginning of the sweep. The output capped at around 107-108 dB @ 100 Hz no matter how hard I pushed it. And at that point the sweep has only ran a couple of seconds. I don't see how you could push it ~7-8 dB higher with any signal. I don't think that for example cooler air could affect that much.

Also users (and one professional review) owning/heard both subs confirm that a single F113 is being stronger/louder than a single Plus/2.

"A single F113 can outgun a single plus/2 on all accounts....but it should be able to....its almost 3 times the cost."

"In my room, the ouput of a single F113 during typical scenes seems to fall in between a single and dual +/2s."

"Personally I owned both the SVS PB 12plus/2 12.3 and the F113 at the same time... I think there was VERY noticable difference between the SVS and JL. A single F113 in my opinion was much more detailed and had more spl than the SVS."

"As for sound, the JL played deeper, louder, and tighter than the SVS with any material I chose. But this statement doesn’t apply only to the SVS PB12-Plus/2; it applies to every other active sub I’ve heard, at any price."

If your numbers would be correct, how can these people keep reporting the opposite?
 

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Hi Ilkka, That doesn't surprise me...I've found much of your data to be equally “unbelievable”..:)

Using anecdotal accounts to back up your findings works both ways. What about the axiom ep500/600 owners who claim their subwoofers are better than the plus/2(and other subs that have performed much better in your/avtalk tests) and even provided their own set of “unbelievable” measurements to “prove it”? According to your “unbelievable” measurements…the axiom is one of the worst performing $1500+ subwoofers in history? Obviously this method of trying to verify objective data by quoting selective subjective impressions of new owners isn't reliable.

Would your point-of-view change if Ed Mullen measured a new Plus/2…or is he also “unbelievable” now?

Tom V.
SVS
 

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Elite Shackster
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Discussion Starter #9
Hi Ilkka, That doesn't surprise me...I've found much of your data to be equally “unbelievable”..:)

Using anecdotal accounts to back up your findings works both ways. What about the axiom ep500/600 owners who claim their subwoofers are better than the plus/2(and other subs that have performed much better in your/avtalk tests) and even provided their own set of “unbelievable” measurements to “prove it”? According to your “unbelievable” measurements…the axiom is one of the worst performing $1500+ subwoofers in history? Obviously this method of trying to verify objective data by quoting selective subjective impressions of new owners isn't reliable.
Axiom EP-600 was never compared to the Plus/2 but the Ultra instead. And as I recall there was only one user making these claims. And we both know who that was. ;) And what it comes to their performance differences, they are pretty identical >22 Hz SPL wise. Though Axiom has much higher THD.

I wouldn't compare these comments (especially when one is from a professional review) with the ones said on EP-600 vs. Ultra. Some of them are made by a hardcore SVS fan, so I don't think he would exaggerate the F113's performance.

Would your point-of-view change if Ed Mullen measured a new Plus/2…or is he also “unbelievable” now?
It depends what kind of results Ed would present. It doesn't matter who the measurer is, whether the data seems realistic does.
 

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It depends what kind of results Ed would present. It doesn't matter who the measurer is, whether the data seems realistic does.
Yeah, what's up Ilk? All of a sudden, I have to question all of your test results :R

I remember the threads where it was suggested by Tom that the SVS subs tested by Europeans were probably faulty, or the testers were in error, and now it seems to be that the slow reverse sine sweep is the culprit?

If Ed tested the F-113 at the same time, it would be interesting, although I honestly believe that Ed's smart enough that he would excuse himself from this sort of situation. It certainly would matter who the measurer is if that measurer is employed by the manufacturer.

No slight against Sir Edward, whom I hold in very high regard, but probably TN would be the guy to measure the Plus/2.

Bosso
 

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Elite Shackster
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Discussion Starter #11
Yeah, what's up Ilk? All of a sudden, I have to question all of your test results :R

I remember the threads where it was suggested by Tom that the SVS subs tested by Europeans were probably faulty, or the testers were in error, and now it seems to be that the slow reverse sine sweep is the culprit?

If Ed tested the F-113 at the same time, it would be interesting, although I honestly believe that Ed's smart enough that he would excuse himself from this sort of situation. It certainly would matter who the measurer is if that measurer is employed by the manufacturer.

No slight against Sir Edward, whom I hold in very high regard, but probably TN would be the guy to measure the Plus/2.

Bosso
Of course I'm not not 100% comfortable with the JL Audio results either, since they were measured by their own tech, but it seems that the end-user reports and professional reviews correlate well with those results, and not the other way around.

But this doesn't mean that the Plus/2 wouldn't be a good product. It's just that the JL Audio has raised the bar when it comes to packing a tons of output and SQ into a very small box. Naturally it isn't cheap.
 
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There were other things written in the posts that my quotes were taken from but there is no need to add fuel to the fire.

I am enjoying the F113 very much but I DO think that others on some other forums are "overstating" the performance delta bwteen it and other units.

In the few weeks I have had it I can say that my subjective opinion is that in my room it plays lower and louder than a single +/2. I owe nothing to JL and I am still deciding if the sub will stay long term. They have done a great job with this unit.

Another interesting point this has raised in my mind is just how good the +/2 is for the money. You really have to look at the whole picture. There will always be something better out there. How much performance can you offer the consumer for their $$?

[rant]

I am in this for the love of the hobby. I have great respect for SVS, JL, and anyone who is constantly pushing the performance envelope with their products. It is becoming increasingly difficult to post comments without sounding bias for fear of your words being taken out of context. (I am not saying that was done in this post.... but it has been done to me before) I am getting very tired of proofreading everything I say so that I do not contribute to negative sentiment towards a given vendor or put a strain on one of the many friendships I have made in this industry.

[/rant]

-Eli
 

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Elite Shackster
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Discussion Starter #13
There were other things written in the posts that my quotes were taken from but there is no need to add fuel to the fire.
Eli,

I never meant to take your words out of context. I just wanted to show that every user report and professional review I've seen, have said that the F113 is stonger than the Plus/2. And I believe that the objective data has to correlate with those notes. Of course everyone knows that the F113 costs much more than the Plus/2, but this discussion is purely about the performance, not about the price.
 

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Ilk,

Of course, you're correct, and it goes to my point. I also feel I can't take JL's numbers as Gospel because they themselves ran the test, but...and for the record:

Very early in the F-113 thread I said:

There's little chance that the Fathom "...played deeper, louder, and tighter than the SVS [SVS PB12-Plus/2] with any material I chose."

I'd be very surprised if this is true in any sense unless non-linear distortions are not considered. Even then, the Fathom will have a tough time matching output with a 2X12" ported sub from 15-30Hz.

Above 30Hz, it's possible, but if the subs were level matched in the same system, I doubt it would be easy to catch that one sub played deeper and louder.
So far, the only info we have below 20Hz is Craig's 2M-GP at 16Hz of 93dB as well as his peak hold graph from WOTW that shows higher output below 20Hz.

The sealed sub should outperform the ported sub below tune, non-linear distortions notwithstanding, and Craig's info seems to agree with this, and would lend a more powerful edge in presentation to a soundtrack like WOTW, but...

The rest of the BW looks to be fairly equal in any computer model, guessing at T/S from the available info, and is in line with my experience in comparing a 1-2X12" ported vs a higher powered, smaller 1X15" sealed. This info, as I've said elsewhere (long before the F-113 came out), is more in line with what Tom has said here and what I've said in the JL thread.

It looks like either you need to test the F-113 in accordance with the tests you've already done on the Plus/2 or a Plus/2 needs to be tested in accordance with the TN method, as JL's results are taken from...to be fair to Tom, IMHO.

Bosso
 
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I think we should all take a cue from TJEli and relax a little bit.

We certainly find it gratifying and encouraging to have the Fathom compared against some of the best performing subwoofers on the market. I really think the SPL differences between ours and the others mentioned are of little real-world significance to a typical user. The hardcore enthusiast, on the other hand, pays a lot of attention to these numbers as they do illustrate a product's performance envelope and offer a basis for technical comparison, but in the end what matters is how the subwoofer sounds and how it integrates with room aesthetics and available space. Sometimes you have to stop listening to the equipment and simply listen to the music or the movie. I'm pretty sure all of the subs being mentioned can make people happy.

It has been pointed out that some of the competitive products are significantly less expensive than the Fathoms, which is certainly true. But it also important to note (as some have) that they are all significantly larger in size than the Fathom. The f113 has an outside physical envelope, including the grille and feet, of only 3.67 cubic feet (104 liters), whereas the others are all much, much bigger. The SVS PB12-plus/2 is 8.15 cu.ft. (230 liters), the Axiom EP600v2 is 6.7 cu.ft. (190 liters), the Velodyne DD-18 is 5.44 cu.ft. (154 liters).

If we simply declare their performance levels to be "comparable" or "similar", then the discussion can shift to size/price/cosmetics/features tradeoffs. I think each product, including the Fathom, can make a very good case for itself one way or another. Of course there is room for subjective opinions on performance and personal preferences, but I don't really think there are any "bad choices" in this product grouping... just ones that are based on what the individual values most. Someone choosing a Fathom is likely influenced by the size/performance equation it offers, whereas someone choosing one of the others is more influenced by price/performance, for example. There are customers out there for all of us and we all need to be civil and respectful of each other.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.
 
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It looks like either you need to test the F-113 in accordance with the tests you've already done on the Plus/2 or a Plus/2 needs to be tested in accordance with the TN method, as JL's results are taken from...to be fair to Tom, IMHO.

Bosso
I need to clarify something. The data that Ilkka has posted is not the measurement series that was done on the f112 to repeat Tom Nousaine's tests.

These are outdoor, 1m GP measurements of an f113, conducted here at JL Audio

The tests took place in our large parking lot early on a Saturday morning (to have a quiet test environment). The calibrated B&K mic was placed on the ground 1 meter from the F113, and levels were measured with our AP. There were no obstructions around the test area for more than 50 feet to be sure the response curves were not perturbed.

By taking the ground plane tests 1 meter from the subs, we got an output SPL level that was directly comparable to a 1 meter half-space SPL reading without adding any level in post processing. No correction factors were added after taking the actual data. (Therefore, these data are also comparable to a 2 m ground plane test with +6 dB added.)

The MAX output levels were taken with no monitoring of distortion. We continued to increase the sine wave input until the sub’s output SPL leveled out. We did this via an input voltage sweep with the AP while monitoring output SPL. SPL readings were RMS, not peak. .

Whether you believe them or not is up to you, but let's be clear about the measurement protocol.

Thanks.

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.
 
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Eli,

I never meant to take your words out of context. I just wanted to show that every user report and professional review I've seen, have said that the F113 is stonger than the Plus/2. And I believe that the objective data has to correlate with those notes. Of course everyone knows that the F113 costs much more than the Plus/2, but this discussion is purely about the performance, not about the price.
No worries Ilkka.

-Eli
 

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...We continued to increase the sine wave input until the sub’s output SPL leveled out. We did this via an input voltage sweep with the AP while monitoring output SPL...
So I take it, until the onset of compression or actually the end of any more output? It might have been compressing for many dB before the output level no longer changed/increased? This is a bit different than what I have seen before.

It is good that we all are trying to keep our emotions in check and keeping the discussion limited to performance, testing and technical issues. :geek:

Would JL Audio be interested in doing 10% distortion limited tests? That would help IMHO.

Bob
 

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Elite Shackster
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Discussion Starter #19
So I take it, until the onset of compression or actually the end of any more output? It might have been compressing for many dB before the output level no longer changed/increased? This is a bit different than what I have seen before.
As the frequency response graph shows, they pushed it as far as it would go, i.e maximum output.

Would JL Audio be interested in doing 10% distortion limited tests? That would help IMHO.
How come? One can calculate them already from those results.

20 Hz: 93-94 dB
25 Hz: 99 dB
31.5 Hz: 105 dB
 
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