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KK DXD 808/12012 Owners Thread

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#1 · (Edited)
Owners

Darkmatter - Single KK DXD808
Recruit - Single KK DXD808
Audiofan1 - Single KK DXD12012
Kenny Powers - Single KK DXD12012
Asere - Single KK DXD12012
13T - Quattro KK DXD12012


Compilation of Kens Responses

About Sub Placement and the Benefits of DUO Configurations
Thanks for the kind words, they are always appreciated.

Further to our discussion, I just posted the following on another Home Theater Shack thread that perhaps is better suited posted here:

The side of the DXD cabinet with the side driver is designed to be optimally placed 2-4" from the wall, preferably in a good solid corner of the room. For most rooms, I usually recommend first locating the DXD in the closest solid corner to your primary listening position. So, if the closest solid corner (no nearby openings like an open door) is in the back of the room, try it there first.

Every room is different and needs some experimentation with subwoofer placement. But, after measuring literally hundreds of studios and rooms with very sophisticated TIME DOMAIN measurement equipment with the world's best laboratory measurement microphones, and my own proprietary analysis technique (which measures and computes very much like our ear/brain mechanism interprets the spectrum of sound energy heard over time including and especially transients), the closest solid corner has the best chance of giving you the best and most accurate "out-of-the-box" results, in my humble opinion and experience.

The DXD's are specifically designed for corner placement which normally will give you the least room mode problems, especially if you are using the stacked DUO configuration which is technically a whole new subwoofer for a host of technical reasons.

Here is what I just wrote in another Home Theater Shack thread about this:

"Yes, a DUO will be AUDIOPHILE BASS NIRVANA for you, I guarantee it! As good as single DXD-808's and DXD-12012's are, it is a whole new experience in the DUO configuration because they are technically a whole new type of subwoofer from the single cabinets, I designed it that way.

Once you stack at least one pair, you have my full BALANCED 3D HIGH VELOCITY PUSH-PULL-PULSAR DEEP BASS PRESSURE WAVEFRONT LINE ARRAY NEARFIELD technology operating in all its glory!!!"

The DXD's can be placed anywhere in a room, but optimum performance in most rooms will be achieved in a corner placement, again, I designed it that way for all the good reasons.

Also worth noting, the DXD's performance secret (please don't tell my competition this secret) is they are very specifically and deliberately and scientifically designed to give optimum bass performance in a real room or studio with real walls, not in a parking lot outdoors where a lot of review measurements are made for subwoofer comparisons. The same holds true for close-up type measurements where only part of a DXD's output is actually measured.

The DXD's put out a sound pressure wave in multiple directions and cannot be properly measured outdoors or close-up, this is a big mistake some reviewers are making. It is somewhat analogous to trying to measure the horsepower on the ground of an ALL WHEEL DRIVE vehicle with a dynamometer, but only measuring the horsepower at one wheel.

I actually get a big kick at the outdoor and close-up review measurements which show the DXD's appearing to have unusual output levels and response, and then when a reviewer listens and measures in a room they usually comment they cannot believe how much pants flappy energy and impact is heard and felt in their real listening room with real walls and how low the DXD's measure in the room. Remember (another top secret not to tell my competitors), I don't use high pass protection filters in my subs (they ruin the bass impact) so they will go all the way down in a real room with real walls.

My mentor, Dr. Lester M. Field, used to say "the device is the perfect analog of itself!"

GOOD SOUND AND GOOD BASS TO YOU...ALWAYS...KEN

The Difference between the XLR/RCA inputs
I have seen several thread discussions and several thread speculations about the level sensitivity difference between a DXD sub's RCA input versus the XLR input when using an unbalanced RCA to XLR signal adapter to the XLR input (instead of using a normal professional balanced XLR input signal) and why sometimes the XLR input either sounds better or has less hum in some situations.

The DXD's RCA and XLR inputs are calibrated to a particular professional standard (can I say THX?). The RCA's input REFERENCE LEVEL to achieve a certain dB SPL (known as the REFERENCE LEVEL) is 100mv (.1 volt). The RCA has a ground connection and a hot connection, and the .1 volts is measured between the hot and ground connection.

To achieve the same dB SPL output level from the XLR input, the XLR needs to see 200mv (.2 volts) on its input (twice the voltage). The XLR has a ground, a hot terminal (pin 2) and a negative terminal (pin 3). So, pin 2 sees +.1 volts and pin 3 sees a -.1 volts. The +.1 volt plus the -.1 volt gives a voltage potential of .2 volts at the balanced input of the XLR, which is 6dB (twice the voltage gives +6dB) more signal level than the .1 volts seen on the RCA input. This means that technically the XLR input needs 6dB more input signal drive level (twice the voltage) to get the same dB SPL output from the sub.

So, if you use the XLR inputs unbalanced with an RCA to XLR adapter, you are only feeding a signal to pin-2 of .1 volts as there is no voltage on pin-3, so the XLR input with .1 volts on pin-2 will have -6dB SPL output level below the same .1 volts on the unbalanced RCA input.

So again, technically, on the DXD, if you use the same unbalanced signal from your surround processor to feed either the DXD's RCA input (only one RCA input) or the XLR input using an unbalanced RCA to XLR adapter, you will have a signal level sensitivity of -6dB SPL lower on the XLR inputs, again when using an unbalanced signal into the balanced XLR input.

If you happen to be using a Y-connector to feed both RCA input's, and then try the single XLR input with an RCA to XLR adapter, you will see a +12dB SPL difference between the two RCA inputs versus a single XLR input. This is because feeding both RCA inputs (.1mv LEFT input + .1mv RIGHT input) with a Y connector feeds twice the voltage (+6dB) to the DXD compared to feeding a single RCA input.

As to the reduced hum using the DXD's XLR input there can be two reasons. One, using an RCA to XLR unbalanced adapter to feed the DXD, the DXD will require 6dB more signal drive level to get the same output, so if you increase the subwoofer output drive signal of your processor by 6dB, you will reduce any hum by 6dB compared to the RCA input. Secondly, as mentioned on the description page for the DXD's it states "The balanced XLR input uses a High Performance Professional Instrumentation type balanced circuit design, which can even help eliminate hum in some unbalanced situations were a ground loop exists..."

Hope this answers the question...KEN

A question about the XLR Pass through if using an unbalanced XLR connection from the AVR

The XLR PASS-THRU will not change anything.

As it is marked on the back panel of the DXD, the XLR OUT is a passive "DIRECT PASS-THRU (UNBUFFERED)" so whatever type signal (balanced or unbalanced) is at the XLR IN appears identically on the XLR OUT. It is the same as if you were using an XLR Y-adapter, which is a totally passive PASS-THRU.

As to the TRIM issue, I would need more specifics about your AVR and what levels you are actually measuring. You could also buy my upcoming STUDIO BASS OPTIMIZATION & CALIBRATION BOX and not worry about it...KEN
A question on max output of 808 and 12012 subs

First let me say that you don't have to worry about damaging a DXD-808 or DXD-12012, they can take just about anything you can throw at them. They are built for continuous, year in and year out, heavy duty studio use where you cannot imagine what is both deliberately and unintentionally sent to the subwoofer during major blockbuster film sound design sessions, I assure you it is far beyond your wildest sonic imagination. Also realize that the DXD's can take all of this even though they do not have the usual high-pass protection filter (which ruins the transients and impact) used by most subwoofer manufacturers (out of fear of damage to their amp and/or driver with high level subsonic signals).

The only caveat is if you have line voltage in excess of 240 volts and do heavy duty subsonic testing with test tones or accidently or deliberately do a high level auto calibration sweep (usually below 10Hz), there is a remote possibility you might fatigue the AC power fuse which is there to protect the amp from abuse or from large power surges from lightning storms or extreme power line surges, and the fatigued fuse might blow when the DXD is turned on due to an excess power surge on turn-on, again usually only if your line voltage is in excess of 240 volts (I have only seen this issue with a handful of owners in the UK and Singapore where they have all measured their line voltage in excess of 240 volts). A new line fuse takes care of it.
 
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#234 ·
I own one 12012 in a 5500cf room and the sub really shines even with that much space.
I placed the sub in different areas in the room and found that the center front wall was best sounding even though Ken suggested corner placement. I will confirm that once I get my minidsp and use REW.
Kriesel is in a different league when it comes to sound.
Make sure the sub is set to green dots.
Also how are you calibrating?
 
#235 ·
Ok, I did some more measurements in different locations. My designated spot is on the right hand corner next to the right front speaker. I made a discovery by accident that I cannot understand. The frequency response is worse than my PC12 but when I sit on my DXD12012 I get a smooth frequency response significantly above the SVS. When I sit on the SVS it even gets slightly better than the Kreisel sub.

I put weight onto the DXD without success. I actually put the PC12 on top, but it does not change frequency response at all. Either it has to be 90kg, or my human body does some magic dampening.

In the other corner the difference between seated and non-seated is not that drastic.

This is a mystery to me.

KathiM
 
#236 · (Edited)
I take it the FR corner is structurally the strongest?
I had my Stack in the FR corner which should have been the best, but it wasn't the strongest
I moved it to the FL the strongest corner, with the bottom driver firing into the front wall as recommended in the manual, but the power lights were distracting
I then turned it 90 deg so the bottom driver fires across the front wall (Second sub fires into the left sidewall) which is not as per recommendation.
The SPL on all freq measured 20 db higher in this orientation and was audibly superior
Using a XTZ room analyser Pro and the built in seine wave generator @ 16Hz had increased from 50 db to 72 db,@ 80Hz 70db to 90db

I will say that using the XTZ between one set of readings and the next might not have been ideal

Edit: I should point out that 16 HZ is the lowest XTZ measures
 
#237 ·
Just found out that the seating thing is a false alarm. When I'm seated I got the Laptop on my lap (this is how it's supposed to be :huh:) but when the Laptop is that close it somehow picks up additional SPL. When I leave the Laptop at a distance there is no change between seated and non-seated.

I then turned it 90 deg so the bottom driver fires across the front wall (Second sub fires into the left sidewall) which is not as per recommendation.
I'm not quite sure I get it. Is it still on its "feet"?

KathiM
 
#238 ·
Tries again.)

Anybody who have the DXD connected too both an integrated(stereo jacks) or stereo preamp and a processor/AVR(XLR)?

I have the subs calibrated with Antimode Dual core in stereo mode.. When using it watching movies I have to flip the connection to by pass mode. I know its recommended that you have to use the green dots when calibrating it with a surround receiver buts thats a lot of hassle. So I have calibrated the surround receiver with the same settings as in stereo. Anybody who use it like this or can recommend otherwise? The subs are brand new and I have just started to use them!

Any help is appreciated!!
 
#239 ·
I use a Marantz 8801 with Audyssey XT32 on my single 12012 and I had to adjust the gain from the green dot to around the 10 o clock position to obtain a setting above -11db it came out around -6.5, I did try both but found this did yield better sound (subjectively of course) All my other dots are as Ken recommends and I'm using the rca connection.
 
#241 ·
When I purchased my first DXD12012 the folks at Kreisel sent the following email about subwoofer breaking : To break in the DXD-12012 send the test tone, found in most receivers, to the DXD-12012 so that the unit is putting out around 90db SPL and let it run for about 20 minutes or so. If this is not possible we recommend just using the subwoofer for playback of content at normal listening levels and in about a week or so with a moderate amount of use you will start noticing that the bass sounds warmer and deeper.
 
#250 ·
I do not know anything about your room. Can you tell me about it? Are you using bass traps? If not I think that could help. If you can smooth out those peaks I think you could be in business. If the peaks were under control equalization might help the dips you have. As it is I doubt Audyssey or even ARC could function well. When you did the manual setup did you use an SPL meter? If so, what level did you set for your sub and your other speakers?
 
#254 ·
I received the UMIK microphone and now did some measurements. It took me some time until I figured out that with my Mac and Mavericks OS I will not go anywhere... I now hooked up a MS laptop and it seems to work. What just is strange to me that, it makes no difference in the measurements either for the SVS nor for the DXD if they are placed tight in a corner or if they are 5 inches away from each side.

What is really stunning, that above 15Hz there is not much difference in frequency response between my SVS PC12-NSD and the DXD12012. Although it sounds different the measurements tell differently.

Grey line: DXD
Green line SVS
...all in the same position.

KathiM
 

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#265 ·
I would like to see some REW measurements in the corner with different gaps to the wall. On both corners that I measured there were virtually no difference between 2 inch and 5 inch. It sounds like everybody's room is sensitive to corner gaps where mine is not at all.:dontknow:

KathiM
 
#266 ·
I think it more of whats heard as to hats measured, perhaps less or more localization and or better blending with the mains I notice more of difference with 2/ch with sub than multich i ended up after a day of setup around 6" from the rear and 2.4" from the side wall as it had the best blend to my ears. I'll give measurements ago when I get the mic to see if this can be detected or not but the ears will always have the final say.
 
#272 ·
Hi, I am new to this forum and have just recently purchased four DXD808 for my stereo setup. This is the first time I am trying to integrate subwoofers with my main speakers (Aerial Acoustic 7T), and in my first attempts I seem to fail miserably. Hopefully someone can give me a clue.

I am using REW to measure and plot the frequency response and waterfall, and the idea is to use DSpeaker Anti-Mode DualCore 2.0 for room correction after I have placed my subs optimally.

I tried first with two DXD808. The problem I have is that they cancel each other out if set to same phase, but if I invert the phase on one of them (set to 180 degrees), the response is much stronger. This did not change even if I moved them around in the room. I have only RCA out on my amplifier (Devialet 200) and am using a RCA-XLR adapter on the output and balanced cable to the sub and also in the link between them.

Am I really supposed to invert one of them? The user manual clearly states that in both Duo and Quattro configuration, all should be set to the same phase.
When I tried Quattro, I saw the same effect, but slightly more complex...
 
#273 ·
Out of interest do you get the same result if the 2 subs are side by side and not stacked
This will determine if both subs are the same and it is not the effect of one being (physically) inverted and at a different height to the bottom one which might energise different modes.
As you start stacking more subs up to the 6 foot height of a Quattro there might be some reinforce/ cancellation reaction.
 
#276 ·
Thanks for the reply. I have sent Ken Kreisel support an email with some measurements.

I have bought these subs in two batches and two are labelled DXD808 and two are MX700. I understand that they are the similar product, but sold for the home user vs pro. Or something like that.

Anyway, through REW measurements I found that the DXD808 gave most output at 0 phase in a DUO configuration, and that cancellation occurred when one of them was phase inverted 180 deg. Fair enough. But when I measured the MX700 in DUO the opposite happened! The cancelling occurred when both were at 0 phase and most output was when one of them was phase inverted 180. Strange! Have any of you experienced this?

Hopefully Ken Kreisel support will come up with an explanation and solution for how to proceed towards sound nirvana.
 
#278 ·
I think you need to wait on Ken. Have you tried the 808's, stacked according to Kreisel instructions, without the 700's? When stacked correctly the top one is inverted so the side woofers will face in opposite directions and the bottom woofer will fire down while the top one fires up. The 808's in duo configuration are pretty formidable.
 
#282 · (Edited)
I haven't tried 0 I always have mine at green dot

That said it is always a problem when it comes to calibration as Audyssey requires 75db and the green dot setting gives too much output resulting in my AVR sub trims maxed out at -12.0

I have 2x DXD 808 Quattro stacks and trying to equally balance 8 subs prior to running Audyssey is neigh on impossible.

I did do it once but went back to the green dot setting as recommended by Ken Kreisel
 
#288 ·
I now have two DXD 12012 subs. Last night I stacked and turned them on with all settings set to green dot. Listening to movie I could NOT hear a difference as it sounded like having only 1 sub.
I measured with REW and the botton sub lost spl around 30hz and the top sub at around 20hz or 18 hz. I then ran REW again this time with both subs combined it read like just having the top sub alone.
Normally can this happen were one sub is different on the graph than the other?
 
#309 ·
I'll assume you're only looking for extra output vs smoothing. I would say phase adjustments per sub so they measure the same, and maybe a distance adjustment in the avr to tighten up the impulse response,(and maybe smooth the crossover region) and you should be good.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#310 ·
I'll assume you're only looking for extra output vs smoothing. I would say phase adjustments per sub so they measure the same, and maybe a distance adjustment in the avr to tighten up the impulse response,(and maybe smooth the crossover region) and you should be good.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yep. I haven't done audyssey yet as I don't like what it does which I lose the tactile and mid bass.
Now if I do audyssey it will set the phase but if I turn audyssey off like I like it I'm assuming the phase will then have to be done manually correct?
 
#325 ·
Does it sound hot to you? Lol. That's a matter of taste of course. I set mine for 82. It's a balance for me, since I like my music with a little more bottom, but I like movies a little flatter. I can't stand when a car door shuts and it's like an earthquake, and I don't flat sounding music. It's a house curve that works out ok. For me. Others might go a different direction.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#335 ·
Based on the KK web pics when stacking, the bottom driver is facing the wall and the top is facing away from the wall.
Can you actually arrange it the other way around bottom facing the room instead?
I ask because I don't really have a solid corner. The only corner would be next to a fireplace that's diagonal. Having said that the amp would face the fireplace and if I change the subs the amp would be facing the component rack.

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