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Discussion Starter #101
Bryan: How close do subs have to physically be in order to be co-located? I assume side-by-side, right?

As mentioned earlier, the single Velodyne is sufficient for most of the time, but there are times when at "agressive" volumes, it power-compresses/limits - it simply cannot keep up with the K-horns. I have often thought about adding a second one, but with Velo prices these days I am not sure that is an option unless I find a good used one. I am leary of buying another brand - concern is that the second one might audibly distort; the Velo is one of their servo designs.

As I recall, adding a second one gives me 6 db - or is it 3?.

Another option is to build an IB. I have one location in the front wall that is mirror to where the Velo is now that could vent into the garage. Another location is on one of the rear side walls about 6 feet from the rear - it would vent into a 10x12 room. Not sure I am physically up to all that work, tho.

I have never heard an IB. Others claim vast superiority to box subs. Is that based on sheer output, extension, or both?
 

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To be truly co-located, you actually stack them vertically. You may find that if you're willing to do the work, having 2 subs in different locations can help with frequency response issues quite a bit.

If you want to do another sub with some headroom, I'd suggest looking at the HSU Research VTF-III. It's on sale right now and is an excellent performer. I don't think you'll have any compression issues with it at all.

IB's can have excellent performance, reach deep, and be very tight and fast. They just take a LOT of space to do right.

Bryan
 

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Discussion Starter #103
Thanks for the advice, Bryan. I am familiar with Hsu products, but have only purchased their car subwoofer.

My concern about buying a lower priced sub comes from an experience with a $500 Definitive sub that I tried several years back - it did not mate well at all with the Velodyne and emitted more port chuffing than anything else. I moved it up to the living room system where it worked OK until the amp failed.
 

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There's a money back guarantee on the HSU stuff I believe.

Not to slam anything, but the HSU is leagues better than the Definitive. Any time someone tries to get output and deep bass extension out of a too small box, they do it with lots of cheap power and lots of built in EQ in the circuitry. That's a recipe for distortion IMO.

Bryan
 

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Discussion Starter #105
Bryan: Any downsides to sonotube subwoofers? Looks like an easy way to come up with a DIY enclosure. I have two of the 12" Hsu car subs that I am not using (wife kept complaining about the boxes in the trunks of both cars) - haven't modeled them yet to see if they will provide enough output to make it worthwhile. Always could jump up to a good 18 incher.

How do folks cut the round end plates proplerly? I have one of the Jasper circle cutters that I used when DIY'ing the car sub boxes, but it will leave a hole in the middle at the pivot point - guess I could just fill that.
 

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Jasper will work fine.

I'm personally not a big fan of the sonotube stuff. It's certainly cheap and easy - but it's hardly non-resonant or IMO stiff enough to form a proper enclosure. Lots of people use them and some guys have had great results - I guess I'm just old school....

Bryan
 

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Discussion Starter #107
I took a day off and finished the ceiling treatments - about 220 sq. ft. done now, what with cutouts for can lights, HVAC outlets and projector cables. Plus, I left one tile behind the projector with no R30 - gave up trying to suspend it while putting the tile in. Only casualty is a zone on the security system which I screwed up wiring the smoke detector back up.

Now for the results. FR is of sub only with mic in the usual chair. BFD is on, with a couple db tweaks of the filters to even out the 20-30Hz range. Purple waterfall is of the final result; the one with the overlay is the old, pre-ceiling treatment one, presented again to show what the ceiling treatment accomplished. The spectral is today's with all the ceiling work done.

I haven't listened to anything yet - will report back tomorrow of any audible improvements of today's work.
 

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Discussion Starter #108
So, Bryan, this is all of the work on trapping that I intend to do. How do you think that it turned out?

Again, thanks to you for all your help and advice and to GIK for the great service.
 

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I think you've done a great job and the measurements show it. 20-30Hz is tough to deal with but it's pretty good. The response is very good for real, in-room measurements. +/-3 from below 20 to 75Hz is a great accomplishment. As with anything, the proof is in the listening since that's what it's all about.

Bryan
 

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Tri Traps up high will be fine. Below, I wouldn't recommend.


Bryan
Sorry to drag everything back to the 2nd post in this thread, but this statement has me wondering.

I have my Tri Traps sitting on the floor. My reasoning was that since when I'm sitting, my head is within the height of the Tri Trap. My room slopes up to a second story front to back and I have panels mounted high to deal with echo, but my 244's and Tri Traps are concentrated down low. Should I be raising my bass traps?
 

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Discussion Starter #111
If I remember correctly, Bryan's recommendation was specific to the design of the Klipschorns that I am using. They are a corner speaker with a bass horn design in which the bass exits the rear sides (see the black grille cloth on the side of the photo in my avatar). The concern was that traps near the output of the bass horn, which they would be for my case if mounted on the floor in the front of the room, would absorb near field speaker output and cause frequency response errors.

In other cases putting the tri-traps on the floor is fine. In fact, that is the way they are designed and the picturs on GIK's website show them on the floor.
 

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If I remember correctly, Bryan's recommendation was specific to the design of the Klipschorns that I am using. They are a corner speaker with a bass horn design in which the bass exits the rear sides (see the black grille cloth on the side of the photo in my avatar). The concern was that traps near the output of the bass horn, which they would be for my case if mounted on the floor in the front of the room, would absorb near field speaker output and cause frequency response errors.

In other cases putting the tri-traps on the floor is fine. In fact, that is the way they are designed and the picturs on GIK's website show them on the floor.
I kind of caught that, but didn't think it through. I'm using SVS cylinders so I'm looking at a 360 degree radiation pattern which puts me in a completely different situation than you. Thanks for the wake-up.
 

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Even without corner loaded bass, sometimes Tri Traps along the wall/floor junction are a good solution. It's especially useful when you have obstructions/restrictions on the front wall and front corners but still need to deal with boundary issues.

Bryan
 

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Discussion Starter #114
Bryan: I am still thinking about adding a second sub. I would prefer to put it on the front (screen) wall. The FR plots indicate that the location of the Velodyne on the front wall is fine.

Since the room treatments are symmetrical (and the room itself, except for a door on the left side) is there any reason not to expect that a mirror image location for the second sub would be a good spot, at least for the first try?
 

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It may work, it may not. If it were me, I'd mirror it on the back wall most likely. In the front, you'll not only get the interaction with the boundaries that you're getting now, but you'll also have interaction with each other. Hard to say what that will be.

Bryan
 

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I would bow down to your system. It's what a young guy like me dreams of!

nate
 

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Discussion Starter #117
Thanks, Nate. Many years in the making, but I am out of the market for speakers:bigsmile: Welllll, maybe another sub...:yay:
 

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Yeah man. Even though I've never actually heard any Klipsch pairs perform, I have always drooled over Paul's Klipschhorn as well as those massive Cornwalls! Someday I'll nab a pair; someday.
 
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