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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm sorry if this is an inappropriate question.

I have been doing some reading on the diy screen forum over at avsforum and it seems most of the advice comes from 2 people. It looks like they have been on there for a long time so I assumed that they know what they are doing and it would be a good idea to take their advice when painting a screen.

However, I poke my head in here and doing a search I've found a small number (maybe there is more but I didn't find much) of posts that refer to those guys as using paint that would be unsatifactory.

So.... who and what to believe. Have any of you seen SF in person or compared it to another paint option and how did they compare? Do you think it's a good idea to use SF for a screen?

Does using a sprayer make a significant difference the quality of the picture compared to using a roller?

I am NOT trying to start a fight or a bunch of arguments, I just want to get some opinions so I can get a better idea. As a long time member of AVS I always get suspicious when a first time poster asks a question that could involve some controversy or argument, so I understand why members here might be suspcious of me (and think I'm just trying to stir up a fight) but all I can tell you is I just want the best painted screen I can get in my basement.

thanks guys
 

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I'm sorry if this is an inappropriate question.

I have been doing some reading on the diy screen forum over at avsforum and it seems most of the advice comes from 2 people. It looks like they have been on there for a long time so I assumed that they know what they are doing and it would be a good idea to take their advice when painting a screen.

However, I poke my head in here and doing a search I've found a small number (maybe there is more but I didn't find much) of posts that refer to those guys as using paint that would be unsatifactory.
Welcome to HTS! :wave: I'm not sure what the diy'ers at avs are using now, but in the past they used craft paints. I believe they now use Liquitex acrylics (after we did a bunch of experiments with them). The main thing that they do is they use too much of certain things that shouldn't be used. Polyurethane is something that shouldn't be added to paint as it yellows very quickly over time. Mica based paints are fine as long as they are of good quality and used in moderation. Silver fire is a classic example of too much of both of those. They use way too much mica and way too much polyurethane in order to try and get a dark screen to perform in a way that it cannot.

So.... who and what to believe. Have any of you seen SF in person or compared it to another paint option and how did they compare?
Sure. :T There are quite a few examples of it here.

Cali was/is a silver fire user.
A couple of silver fire threads:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/diy-screens/20933-silver-fire.html
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/diy-screens/45361-silver-fire-version-2-0-a.html

And there are probably a few other examples of it here, but that should give you an idea. Something to keep in mind is that we don't keep up with the current formulas as they change often. Most of the time they change pretty quickly after we test it. ;)


Do you think it's a good idea to use SF for a screen?
Absolutely not! It's the most over blown, over hyped garbage on the internet right now. Why Alan and David allow it to continue is beyond us. :huh: I think it helps their screen sales. Some of the things they say defy the laws of physics. And most of what they say are outright lies. For example, stating gain numbers by eye - no valid measurements.

And don't get me wrong! I'm not bothered by them a bit! They keep us fairly busy here as well. :T There are always more people viewing our diy screen forum than there is viewing both their diy screen forum and their screen forum. Why? Because most folks use common sense and can read between the lines I guess. We don't have a lot of questions or new threads here because we present the information in a fairly clear manner that doesn't leave a lot of questions. :bigsmile:

Does using a sprayer make a significant difference the quality of the picture compared to using a roller?
My personal belief is no. However, I would spray, rather than roll, C&S Ultra™ or Black Widow™. That's just my personal preference though. Plus I have a couple of sprayers at my disposal. But I wouldn't recommend spraying for the sake of spraying. Most commercial products have texture. So a little bit of texture from rolling wouldn't be a bad thing.

I am NOT trying to start a fight or a bunch of arguments, I just want to get some opinions so I can get a better idea. As a long time member of AVS I always get suspicious when a first time poster asks a question that could involve some controversy or argument, so I understand why members here might be suspcious of me (and think I'm just trying to stir up a fight) but all I can tell you is I just want the best painted screen I can get in my basement.

thanks guys
Understood. Trust me in that we really don't get that worked up over avs anymore. There's nothing for us to get worked up about. I view the avs diy screen forum as a comedy forum. They used to contradict themselves every day or so. I bet they still do. :heehee:

What projector? What screen size? Is there any ambient light? What color are the walls and carpet?
 

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I'm sorry if this is an inappropriate question.
Fisrt off, welcome to HTS! :wave:
Your question is fine. In fact it is probably one that everyone interested in making their own DIY screen coming here from AVS has.

I have been doing some reading on the diy screen forum over at avsforum and it seems most of the advice comes from 2 people. It looks like they have been on there for a long time so I assumed that they know what they are doing and it would be a good idea to take their advice when painting a screen.
That is one way to look at it, and the way those 2 people would like you to believe; after all, they have all those years of experience painting screens so they must know what they are doing right? I think if you do a bit more reading, both here and at AVS, you will come to a different conclusion.

We here at HTS are all about providing objective data to back up what we say and about how our DIY screen mixes work. We do this by actually measuring things like screen gain and screen color using instrumentation and measurement protocols designed for the purpose. Those "2 people" at AVS don't. To my knowledge they have never documented the color or neutrality of their screen mixes or verified any of the gain data they provide for those mixes. All their mix data is obtained "by eye" by comparing them against some other screen or panel. The human eye simply can't do that with any accuracy.

However, I poke my head in here and doing a search I've found a small number (maybe there is more but I didn't find much) of posts that refer to those guys as using paint that would be unsatifactory.
The mixes of theirs that we have tested (IIRC one version of RSMM and at least two SF versions) have indeed made screens that we would consider unsatisfactory for normal home theater use. They have not met our color neutrality standards (admittedly tight), but the primary problem has been their decreased viewing cone and/or hot spotting.

So.... who and what to believe.
Indeed that is the question. The answer is up to you. You must decide if you want to use a screen mix (or even a simple Off-The-Shelf paint) that is shown and documented to work well as a projection screen; or to believe undocumented data, except some screen photos which don't really mean much, from someone that asks you to believe them because of all their experience.

Have any of you seen SF in person or compared it to another paint option and how did they compare? Do you think it's a good idea to use SF for a screen?
Yes, many times over. My first DIY screen was a version of SF being promoted 3 or 4 years ago. The final result was very off-color and hot spotted.

Mech has done testing of two (maybe three) different versions of SF and there are threads about that in this forum. The only documented color and gain data for SF is that which we have done here at HTS.

We still, in good conscience, can't recommend SF as a good screen. See the threads on SF for more details. Also, the latest version of SF has gone through a number of changes in the last 6 months or so. When the formula becomes stable we may test it again, but right now it's still a moving target.

Does using a sprayer make a significant difference the quality of the picture compared to using a roller?
It depends on what screen mix or paint you use. All of the mixes and paint we recommend can be rolled as well as sprayed. Which application method you use is up to you. I personally prefer to spray; and spraying will generally provide a smoother finish than rolling, but I have seen rolled screens that could not be differentiated from sprayed ones. No matter what application method you chose, PRACTICE it until you can put the paint down with no visible problems (roller marks when rolling, streaking or spattering when spraying).

I am NOT trying to start a fight or a bunch of arguments, I just want to get some opinions so I can get a better idea. As a long time member of AVS I always get suspicious when a first time poster asks a question that could involve some controversy or argument, so I understand why members here might be suspcious of me (and think I'm just trying to stir up a fight) but all I can tell you is I just want the best painted screen I can get in my basement.

thanks guys
HTS has a strict rule against flaming and such, it applies to EVERYONE including the moderators.

Give us the specifications of your HT and we would be glad to render an opinion of what screen would be best for you. :T

OK, I see Mech beat me to the draw. He types faster than I do. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks guys - I really need to PM you guys but I can't yet. Would you mind PMing me and then I could reply or would I still need the 5 posts?
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I found it but I got this message:

james42, you do not have permission to access this page.

Have you activated your account? Surely you did not miss all those notices that you MUST activate your account before you can post, view certain forums and download files. Until you reply to the activation email, you will be treated as a Guest and you will not have full privileges. If you have already activated your account, you may be receiving this message due to one of several reasons:

Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this area.

If you are a New Member with less than 5 posts, the following restrictions are applied:"


I know I've activated my account or I wouldn't be able to post, right?
 

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I have experimented with RSMM, an older version of SF, plain old UPW, C&S and a concoction of my own. I have sprayed 2 of them and rolled the remainder. I found zero difference between the 2 methods. All of my screens are painted BOC.

UPW and C&S gave me close to the same overall results but C&S was neutral so there was less calibration adjustment. (using CalMan).

I rolled and sprayed RSMM and although to the untrained eye it looked decent, it had a blue push to it. I sprayed SF and really had to make some calibration adjustments to make it right. That and the fact is SF is so hard to mix, I could have easily got too much of any color component.

Both RSMM & SF had sparklies that I ALWAYS saw and it was a distraction.

Ultimately C&S won out. It doesn't hot spot, is very easy on the eyes and I can't SEE the screen.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I have experimented with RSMM, an older version of SF, plain old UPW, C&S and a concoction of my own. I have sprayed 2 of them and rolled the remainder. I found zero difference between the 2 methods. All of my screens are painted BOC.

UPW and C&S gave me close to the same overall results but C&S was neutral so there was less calibration adjustment. (using CalMan).

I rolled and sprayed RSMM and although to the untrained eye it looked decent, it had a blue push to it. I sprayed SF and really had to make some calibration adjustments to make it right. That and the fact is SF is so hard to mix, I could have easily got too much of any color component.

Both RSMM & SF had sparklies that I ALWAYS saw and it was a distraction.

Ultimately C&S won out. It doesn't hot spot, is very easy on the eyes and I can't SEE the screen.
What is C&S?
 

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What is C&S?
C&S™ is the abbreviation for Cream&Sugar™. It was our original N9 reflectively enhanced screen mix. The silver paint used to make it was discontinued so a new mix had to be developed which we call Cream&Sugar™ Ultra.

The silver paint in C&S™ was made with plastic flakes that were coated with aluminum and the mix was 1/3rd silver paint. The new C&S™ Ultra uses a mica-based artist silver paint which makes up 1/2 of the total mix. Mica isn't as effective a reflector as aluminum since light passes through the mica flakes as well as reflects off the surface. Mica also has problems with light refraction that aluminum doesn't have. Those negative aspects of mica have been controlled in C&S™ Ultra.
 

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Yup...I have used it. I tried it and its doesnt live up to what they say. I had my doubts but I wanted to find out for myself.
And I must say knowing there are tons of mixes you can do that are 1/10 compex as compared to SF makes makes you 'wonder' if there really is something special about SF. Well it isnt. And the yellowing is what really drove me nuts. It took a while for me to see it, but when my screen was new I sent off a sample to be measured by Mech, and he could see it and his meter confirmed it. I dont have as good an eye, so it took a bit more yellowing before I saw it.
 
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