[Lonely Raven]

Greets all!

It's been ages since I've done any speaker builds, and I've pretty much forgotten everything I used to know...and I see all sorts of great software tools and designers out there!

I'm hoping there is something out there that will fit my concept and budget.

Basically, inexpensive two way that will get me the holographic imaging I miss so much, in a small room with a 5 watt tube amp. I'm not concerned with deep bass or reference volume, just holographic imaging on a budget.

I'm hoping to pick up drivers for $100-$150 per speaker, and build the boxes of exotic hardwoods I already have. I'm a decent woodworker and can build whatever I can dream up. I'm also going to treat whatever room/area I decide to setup as my listening room with OC703 and large 2d diffusers. It will probably be a small area in the basement completely surrounded with treatment (both absorbers and diffusers), a pair of speakers, and me on a small leather chair.

Anyone have any suggestions on pre-designed two ways that fit this bill? :huh:

 

[dyohn]

You could pick up a pair of Fostex FE260's in that price range... 96db full-rangers...

 

[Lonely Raven]

You could pick up a pair of Fostex FE260's in that price range... 96db full-rangers...

Something like that is my backup plan. I was hoping for simple two way design, but a super efficient full range is something I'm keeping in the back of my mind. I've just never heard one that sounded good through the whole spectrum. Again, I'm not super concerned about concert bass, just holographic imaging.

 

[zero the hero]

thats easy - EconoWave, over at AudioKarma - http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=150939

Theres a lot to go through, but the summary thread sums it up nicely. Zilch is great at answering questions and clearing up confusion also.

 

[xyrium]

Gotta love the F3 on Jordans

http://diyaudioprojects.com/Speakers/Jordan-JX92S-Bass-Reflex/

 

[zero the hero]

Gotta love the F3 on Jordans

http://diyaudioprojects.com/Speakers/Jordan-JX92S-Bass-Reflex/

thats not bad for a full range, but the title of the thread states he's looking for efficient speakers... 88db and 4.5mm xmax doesnt really fit that bill

 

[Lonely Raven]

Gotta love the F3 on Jordans

http://diyaudioprojects.com/Speakers/Jordan-JX92S-Bass-Reflex/

Which are also $170 each and 85db 1watt/meter. So they are neither efficient, nor inexpensive.

 

[xyrium]

Hmm true. I somehow relate the full range designs to efficiency, and the FR caught my eye on that design. I say, get a pair of Jolida 50 watters and try 'em anyway. They sure look nice connected to those Mc's!

The Econowaves are indeed impressive on paper, what would you compare their sound to?

 

[Jason_Nolan]

I say finish your first reflection point traps and watch how much you inherit that pinpoint imagining and soundstage you're missing. More than likely this has collapsed due to reflection and you'll gain results once you treat your room.

Worked for me, before I had a blur of sound collecting until I used absorption. Amazing what it can do, not so much for how it looks...

 

[Lonely Raven]

I say finish your first reflection point traps and watch how much you inherit that pinpoint imagining and soundstage you're missing. More than likely this has collapsed due to reflection and you'll gain results once you treat your room.

Worked for me, before I had a blur of sound collecting until I used absorption. Amazing what it can do, not so much for how it looks...

I'm setting up a dedicated section of the basement...unfortunately really small, but it will be well treated.

I currently have no speakers to go with my 5 watt tube amp. This is why I'm looking to build something.

 

[RIKKITIK]

http://www.nutshellhifi.com/Ariel.html#index
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/index.html
http://www.clarisonus.com/blog/

I found alot of info at these sites. I built the ME2's 6 years ago, and in my system (see profile), I couldn't be more pleased. I've yet to hear a more satisfying set of speakers. 92db efficient. And I love 3D stereo sound. Best of luck in the search.

the Vifa P13-WH is still available from Parts express for about $43.50 ea.

 

[DrWho]

How low do you consider full range to be? And are you talking $150 per driver, or $150 per speaker?

Depending on how big you could live with, you could easily get extension down somewhere between 40 and 80Hz with the B&C PE32 in a bass horn at over 106dB sensitivity. High frequency extension should be usable to around 1kHz.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=294-660

For the tweeter, I'd look at the 1" throat Dayton horn:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=270-300
...and probably with the B&C ME10 compression driver:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=294-600
Note that the freq response in the datasheet was with an ME10 horn which has a 1.5kHz cutoff...it'll go lower on the Dayton horn, although you'll also need to do some CD EQ as well...

That puts you at about $210 per side, 106dB sensitivity, 50Hz-18kHz, and 90x40 polars. You could probably find a cheaper 12" driver if you wanted to bring the price down a bit, but I don't know of anything off the top of my head.

I was just thinking a bass horn for the LF would be a great way to show off your woodworking skills.

 

[Lonely Raven]

http://www.nutshellhifi.com/Ariel.html#index
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/index.html
http://www.clarisonus.com/blog/

I found alot of info at these sites. I built the ME2's 6 years ago, and in my system (see profile), I couldn't be more pleased. I've yet to hear a more satisfying set of speakers. 92db efficient. And I love 3D stereo sound. Best of luck in the search.

the Vifa P13-WH is still available from Parts express for about $43.50 ea.

I'll have to look into those...my head hurt wading through the EconoWave thread above...

How low do you consider full range to be? And are you talking $150 per driver, or $150 per speaker?

Depending on how big you could live with, you could easily get extension down somewhere between 40 and 80Hz with the B&C PE32 in a bass horn at over 106dB sensitivity. High frequency extension should be usable to around 1kHz.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=294-660

For the tweeter, I'd look at the 1" throat Dayton horn:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=270-300
...and probably with the B&C ME10 compression driver:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=294-600
Note that the freq response in the datasheet was with an ME10 horn which has a 1.5kHz cutoff...it'll go lower on the Dayton horn, although you'll also need to do some CD EQ as well...

That puts you at about $210 per side, 106dB sensitivity, 50Hz-18kHz, and 90x40 polars. You could probably find a cheaper 12" driver if you wanted to bring the price down a bit, but I don't know of anything off the top of my head.

I was just thinking a bass horn for the LF would be a great way to show off your woodworking skills.

As I said, I'm not terribly worried about bass. I'd be happy if they could go down to 80Hz, but if they don't, I'll just build a better sub-woofer. I was thinking about $150 per side, just drivers and crossover really. I have plenty of wood and building materials, but I could stretch it to $210 per side if I found something that really nails what I'm looking for. I don't want to drive more power, or bigger speakers, or reference level SPL...I just want 3D sound.

Are there plans for what you're talking about? Part of what I'm looking for, is something already designed, that I can just buy and build.

I heard the most amazing 3d sound about 12 years ago, and I've been wishing for it since.

 

[JerryLove]

I don't know where they are on costs, but as is accurately pointed out above: horn speakers are known for their very high efficiencies. It's one reason they were very popular back in the days of low-power tube-based amps

 

[RIKKITIK]

IMHO, horns/wave guides, pay a big price for that efficiency. Between horn diffraction issues and the inherent driver offsets, it makes it very difficult to produce the 3D holographic sound and keep costs under control, My $.02.

 

[Lonely Raven]

IMHO, horns/wave guides, pay a big price for that efficiency. Between horn diffraction issues and the inherent driver offsets, it makes it very difficult to produce the 3D holographic sound and keep costs under control, My $.02.

That's what I was always lead to believe as well.

I'm not adverse to horns, it's just that it takes a very skilled designer to make one that works right.

That's why I'm simply looking for an efficient two way. I could build anything I want, I'm decently skilled with wood, but I need plans to follow.

It's beginning to look like maybe a Fostex full range is my best bet at this point, but I'm keeping an open mind to everything you guys throw out. Nothings hooked me yet though.

 

[scitizen17]

This is a design that I have been working on for about a month, however as of now it is unproven until I complete the construction and testing. Calculations show this to be about 98dB efficient, 49 - 20,000. This is a ported enclosure ( two 3" ports) and complies with the Phi ratio and is tuned to 4th order Butterworth for maximally flat response. The key to it's success is the low-frequency driver selection and the 12dB Linkwitz-Riley approximation crossover with woofer Zobel network, horn tweeter compensation and attenuation.

 

[Lonely Raven]

That sounds great! Tell me one you get one built...I'm not rushing into building this yet, as I'm still working on building the QRD diffusers and absorbers for the theater and listening room.

 

[scitizen17]

I will definitely let you know. To digress, I am in the process of building a single-ended KT88 tube amp and I have reached a stopping point since the output transformers I ordered from Hong Kong on November 3rd are STILL NOT HERE! The delay prompted the speaker design since I'll need them anyway. I'm probably about a month away from testing.

The cost for a pair, including crossover components, less cabinet & construction, is estimated to be $475.

Best regards,

Scott

 

[scitizen17]

Pardon me for sounding dumb, what are QRD diffusers and absorbers?