[JHuck]

I just posted my first HT build in the ported section now I'm considering a musically oriented build. The music of interest is dance/house music. I would like a sub with maximum punch and "tightness". I was considering going with a sealed design...maybe twin 12" Titanics with a 1000W plate.

Would this be a decent route to go? My understanding is that for music, I can focus on hz in the 50 and above range. This being so, a sealed enclosure would seem to fit the bill, maybe 2 cu ft per sub. I assume it would be best to separate to the subs?

Open to suggestions.

BTW-My new hobby worries my wife. :whistling:

 

[tonyvdb]

My understanding is that for music, I can focus on hz in the 50 and above range.

I would go lower than that, There are lots of recordings that reach into the 35Hz range Lower than 30Hz is unnecessary.

 

[lsiberian]

I just posted my first HT build in the ported section now I'm considering a musically oriented build. The music of interest is dance/house music. I would like a sub with maximum punch and "tightness". I was considering going with a sealed design...maybe twin 12" Titanics with a 1000W plate.

Would this be a decent route to go? My understanding is that for music, I can focus on hz in the 50 and above range. This being so, a sealed enclosure would seem to fit the bill, maybe 2 cu ft per sub. I assume it would be best to separate to the subs?

Open to suggestions.

BTW-My new hobby worries my wife. :whistling:

My understand is that tight subs have a qtc of about 0.5. Now this can be done with a ported sub by shaping the response. I suggest dual JL Audio 8w7 builds.

They have great musical quality and be crossed higher than your typical sub. Although you may look at the anarchy driver.

 

[ironglen]

That's what I've finally decided to beef up my mid bass, dual anarchy drivers for a 4Ω load, Kevin modeled them at .75 ft³ ea and they look good to 30hz. I haven't seem them modeled sealed though... Built ported with their clean xmax, they're like getting dual 8's for $100 along with a narrower profile:dumbcrazy:

 

[JHuck]

Talked to one of the PE guys and he strongly suggested going with a pro audio 18" driver like the Omega Pro 18A tuned to 40 hz in a 4-5 ft box.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=290-428

He said it would have plenty of punchy, high SPL bass for music.

 

[soho54]

Umm, check this

This isn't even counting the alternate lower tunings most Rock bands use these days, pipe organs/synthesizers which can run down to 16Hz, electronic bass which is unfortunately in the single digits these days, or the natural instrument sympathetic reverberations into the teens.


"Punch" is a function of SPL. If you want punch on a flat system turn it up. If you want "Punch" at lower listening levels add EQ. Most people complaining about "punch" are use to exaggerated bass response. Either add it in with EQ, or build a peaking enclosure and do it that way. This is why people think a small sealed sub is the only way to get "Punch." They are just altering the enclosure FR, and don't get it. (same deal with BW limited Pro drivers) :rolleyesno:

If you want "Punch" with an IB, LLT, sealed sub, or whatever just add some boost between 60-120Hz. Done.

 

[SteveCallas]

What the average person calls "punch" is really a lack of low frequency capability and moderate to high upper bass distortion harmonics, typically due to ringing from too small of an enclosure. So if you want the average person's "punch", purchase some cheapo drivers and put them in a small sealed enclosure.

You are on the right track with twin 12" Titanics sealed.

 

[gperkins_1973]

Steve,

So will you not get that with a dual 18" FI Q18 11 cu ft sealed sub. Tonnes of low end but feeling Im missing some mid bass.

Is that just the characteristics of an 18" driver.

cheers

Graham

 

[soho54]

The enclosure Q is to low to exaggerate the bass on it's own. Add EQ, or start filling the enclosure with bricks.

 

[dyohn]

The enclosure Q is to low to exaggerate the bass on it's own. Add EQ, or start filling the enclosure with bricks.

And what's your Xover frequency?

 

[soho54]

It doesn't matter. A crossover is not a brick wall. Even if you cross over at 40Hz if you add 6dB at 80Hz the signal still increases and sums with the Mains, and you get +6dB at 80Hz.

 

[dyohn]

It doesn't matter. A crossover is not a brick wall. Even if you cross over at 40Hz if you add 6dB at 80Hz the signal still increases and sums with the Mains, and you get +6dB at 80Hz.

If you like massive distortion perhaps. Of course it matters where and what slope Xover he is using, and how it blends with the main system and what Xover characteristics it has. It is, indeed, the key to solving this issue.

 

[soho54]

That was a little simplified, but it holds true unless you have a sub with monster Le and it rolls off very quickly on it's own. In the previous example you could end up with less than 6dB in-room in this case, but all you would need to do is turn up the gain some more.

 

[soho54]

If you like massive distortion perhaps. Of course it matters where and what slope Xover he is using, and how it blends with the main system and what Xover characteristics it has. It is, indeed, the key to solving this issue.

That is not what you asked.

The way I read it.

 

[Guiria]

Purely hypothetical here since I don't own two subs but would adding another sub help with the punch/slam effect?

The punch effect is a result of moving air. If you have one sub calibrated at 75 db pink noise then add another sub calibrated at 75 db pink noise won't you be moving twice the amount of air and increase the punch effect?

Hurry and correct me if I'm wrong before I build another sub (I wish)

 

[soho54]

If you add another sub with the same amount of power you will get an increase of 6dB over the full range of the subs bandwidth. This would be just like running the single sub 6dB hotter, only the "punch" would be a little less because the two subs would both be working less than the single sub, and distortion (free punch for most people) would be less.

Now if you added the second sub, and then EQed down the lower range of the subs you could get your "punch" with less distortion.

 

[JHuck]

The reason why I posted my question is because although I really like my DIY 15" slot port sub (5 cu ft 21 hz tune), when I play heavy bass dance music at high SPL, it sounds like the bass gets sloppy (muddy?). After reading Steve’s LLT overview, I now have somewhat of a better understanding of ported/sealed large/small pros and cons. If size wasn’t a concern, would an LLT design be just as good for pure music play as it is for HT or would you (Steve) still suggest I stick with the twin Titanics in a sealed enclosure?

Also, I initially thought the Titanics would be a good bet but the PE guy fealt strongly that an Omega pro-18 in a ported box would be a better choice. The set up I mentioned to him was that the sub might be used in PA settings as I sometimes DJ family/friends events. Not sure if this changes your suggestions.

 

[soho54]

OK question, what do you do with the EQ settings on boom boxes, Ipods, or car stereos? If they have set preferences like Rock, Pop, Classical... what do you use. How do you adjust the Winamp, WMP EQ?

We really can't help with a subjective question without knowing your pre-conditioning preferences. What naturally works for me may not work for you.

 

[Guiria]

If you add another sub with the same amount of power you will get an increase of 6dB over the full range of the subs bandwidth. This would be just like running the single sub 6dB hotter, only the "punch" would be a little less because the two subs would both be working less than the single sub, and distortion (free punch for most people) would be less.

Now if you added the second sub, and then EQed down the lower range of the subs you could get your "punch" with less distortion.

At a given SPL, having multiple subs will give you less punch.

At a given SPL, distortion free bass has less punch than distorted bass.

SPL is as much of a factor or more for the punch sensation than the frequencies that people worry about to get their punch.

Are these statements correct?

 

[soho54]

At a given SPL, having multiple subs will give you less punch.

That isn't what I meant. Most Punch is centered in the 60-120Hz region. You need an increase is these levels compared to others to get Punch at lower total system SPL levels. If you boost all the low frequency frequencies you will end up with what is described as "Muddy/Bloated/Sloppy" bass. (50Hz is a key frequency for this in rock music.)

At a given SPL, distortion free bass has less punch than distorted bass.

The distortion adds SPL, so you would have to say, "With a given SPL set before EQ."

SPL is as much of a factor or more for the punch sensation than the frequencies that people worry about to get their punch.

It is both. You want the SPL in the right frequencies at lower playback levels.

Take GnRs Welcome to the Jungle. On a flat system there is no bass or drum Punch at normal listening levels, but if you crank things up you will hit a point where the Punch/kick in the chest is there all of a sudden.

Now if you take the same system and EQ the area between 60-120Hz up, say 6dB Q1 at 80Hz, and 2dB Q.5 ~110Hz you will have that same feeling of punch at the lower listening levels, and things will still sound normal. When you turn it up you will have greater distortion though, and the possibility of the bass thinning back out as you reach the drivers limits in the EQed range. If you have ever been in a car where as they turned up there music at a certain point the bass doesn't get any louder and the highs get unbearable, that is the same thing. :T