Home Theater Forum and Systems banner

1 - 8 of 8 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
45 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
So I don't know if anyone else noticed.

http://www.svsound.com/products-spks-mts02.cfm

Svs upadted the MTS line again and it seems like. Svs is jumping the shark more than they have been.

here is part of the marketing for the MST-02 page.

"SVS/Tymphany MA-02 wide bandwidth, low-resonance ferro fluid-cooled tweeters.

New SVS/Tymphany MA-02

Big shoes to fill : The preceding ScanSpeak AirCirc tweeter was an excellent driver, but our loudspeaker designers and top-tier build house Tymphany Audio knew we could improve on its performance and reliability. The result is the elegant MA-02 tweeter with improved linearity, power handling, resonance characteristics, and also sporting our custom-tooled SVS logo.

The ferro fluid cooling allows exceptional durability improvements over the earlier tweeter. The high-excursion design uses an high-grade ferrite magnet instead of less cost-effective neo, and with it's rear chamber the low natural resonance makes for a more elegant crossover. It's not every day a master speaker builder is allowed to redo a tweeter a woofer and the crossover, top to bottom. But that's what the M-Series/02 represents.

With a cleaner more balanced high frequency response and even improved sealing we're happy to put SVS's legendary design stamp on this high-end tweeter. Made by none other than Tymphany Audio famous for Vifa and Peerless brands among others. Such a partnership provided SVS unprecedented access to materials and resources needed to make a stellar set of new drivers.
New SVS MA-02 ferro-fluid cooled tweeter by Tymphany
With better high frequency response, and better durability, the MA-02 ferro fluid tweeter improves on M-Series dynamic sound and impeccable imaging. Look over the frequency response charts below. Smooth.

This and the new AL cone 7" woofer below were vital evolutions of the SVS M-Series sound. Made only for SVS, with a design honed to perfection in Asia and the USA we're proud to use this new tweeter in both the M-Series/02, and our trendy new Art Speaker Line. It represents a tremendous sonic achievement and entry by SVS into the true premium tweeter market. One year in the making, shipping now.

And... exclusive SVS Peerless MA-02/AL 7" woofers
New SVS/Peerless 7" AL woofer SVS/Peerless 7" AL woofer SVS/Peerless 7" AL woofer side

Maybe some will surmise that somehow then, something must have been left out, or seriously compromised, somewhere. But that's not how we do things at SVS. One weak link and you can ruin an entire speaker, high-zoot tweeter and all. We spent a year on that alone.

The new 7" woofer is replete with a stiff and light anodized aluminum (AL) cone and cap, cast aluminum basket and synthetic rubber surround -- the perfect counterpart to the other amazing parts. With improved transparency in the mid-range this Peerless-based custom woofer is a key part of our world-class imaging.

And since they are not cheap speakers, maybe some folks will wonder if all this attention to high-tech, high-end parts really make a difference. Really, can you "hear" quality components such as these? We think so. In fact since the first version of these speakers were world-acclaimed, we're sure of it. Besides, quality this "excessive" means your speakers will sound as good years down the road, as they do today. "

If you where confused by that SVS Dropped the Scan-speak tweeter from the speaker and the peerless nomex woofers as well. Svs says its for performance reasons but I find that hard to believe that a simply tweeter could compete against the high end scan speak model. I can only assume SVS is trying to reduce its costs by using their new relationships to cheap out on parts.

And if anyone didn't notice they don't even offer a black oak or cherry version of the speaker. They offer rosenut. They don't even offer rosenut anymore expect on the PB ultra 13.

Sadly this isn't the first time SVS has de tuned this speaker. The version 1 of the MTS-01 was extremely neutral and then crossover was changed and called new and improved. To appeal more to the masses. And improve power handling and so on. And now it seems like they don't even care about keeping the quality.

So seriously SVS what are you doing? Are you trying to jump the shark?

Is it me or SVS cheeping out on the MTS?.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,777 Posts
I think it might be a good idea to wait for some reviews of the new M-Series before you make a judgement. I have had some experience with SVSound, and have heard improvements in each newer speaker I have listened to. Of course, it is just my opinion. Since the new tweeter is made by the same manufacturer, it seems to me that it would be an upgrade. Have fun. Dennis
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
49 Posts
Shaun,

Sorry but the first XO version of the M-Series was barely short of disaster, we didn’t halt production and replace free of charge all customer crossovers for nothing. "Rev1" on the three speakers were not well designed, period. The revision (rev2), way back in 2008 now, garnered S&V Mag's Editor's Choice and was the product of one of the top speaker designers in the world IMO. SO good we hired him full time.

If anyone preferred the first XO version (there were a couple) you are in the 2% league. Which is fine. Speakers have a personal affinity akin to wine and food, but there is a strong objective component too. That a new XO was needed shortly after launch, involved little debating it at SVS and we were very open about the failure to get it right at the time. That was a MASSIVELY expensive project, and was NOT done, I promise "to appeal to the masses". We're not big ones to worry about the masses Shaun. Objective performance has to be solid and it was not tll the M-Series/01 was fixed. Two years ago now. How time flies.

This now being the third XO, second woofer and second tweeter makes the M-Series ALL ours, with no off the shelf parts at all. Like our designer wanted it. We said flat out the AirCirc tweeter was a tough act to follow. The new tweeter is NOT cheaper really. All told we would have been MUCH better off (simply from a cost stand point) leaving the AirCirc tweeter in the mix.

Why not? Performance and durability. Good as it the AirCirc is it's not perfect. Nothing is. More to the point here, when have you EVER known SVS to do things to "cheep out" (cheap I guess)?? 11 years here and I can say with some authority we have never EVER done anything of this magnitude to "save cost" on a major component. Everything gets improved performance first, then cost falls where it may. If you knew how much work went into this new configuration you would know how wrong that charge of "decontenting" is.

The AirCirc is/was a great tweeter. But with a full up model revision we had a chance to make a more neutral, and more durable tweeter with one of the top builders in the world, and spent a year doing it at great expense. I do understand your skepticism but it's unfounded and certainly not based on any sort of corporate history.

The M-Series/02 is a more refined design from top to bottom and that was a very VERY challenging thing to do, and only with all this work did we feel the "02" designation was warranted.

With the first big change to the family it was ONLY the XO that changed, and while good enough to win glowing praise as one of the finest speaker in the world, we knew a bit more improvement could be made. And when we say "could" at SVS then "should" follows quickly.

Again I TOTALLY get those who see ANY change in SVS models, sources or point of origin as some nefarious means of milking customers of more money in an effort to sleep in more comfortable beds (as the joke runs .... "you decontented the hell out of that product, how do you LIVE with yourself Mr. OEM???" "In a very comfortable bed" the refrain goes).

Sorry, that is just not in us at SVS. Our lead EE/Acoustical Engineer would quit if "cost savings" ever drove our sometimes gut wrenching R/D cycle (with months of testing and travel attached to every initiative, not to mention packaging changes, website changes, inventory swaps, etc etc.). All to "save money". Sorry. again, not how we're "wired" at SVS at all.

The proof is in the pudding. We're floating stereo pairs to HTT, some big mags, and inviting any/all to compare these not only to any speaker on the market in a similar price range, but their predecessors. We take our legacy pretty seriously, and frankly part of that legacy is a pretty long one which includes improving amps, woofer, pretty much everything. On a good day we break even with such improvements on costs. Usually it costs quite a lot. Now and again we get a "two-fer" meaning, we upped looks/performance/durability... AND dropped costs some.

Perhaps my protest will convince you even more that our somewhat more conventional looking tweeter, that stiff/light 7" woofer and the entirely new XO built specifically FOR those new parts really WAS done to save money. Listen to a set and then cast 'round for something with better sound for less money. In the end THAT is the scrutiny we must withstand. When you hand finish your own XO's, I promise, we're ready for that scrutiny.


Ron
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,777 Posts
Well said, Ron. As a long-time customer, i would have to agree with you that you are far more interested in quality than cost! Keep ip the great work. Dennis
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
I found this site a couple weeks ago and have been reading and lurking. After reading the OP's post I thought I would join and comment.

I have been a huge fan of SVS since about 2003. I have owned two of their subwoofers. I have not found a better company to deal with for either product quality or customer service. I have recommended them to numerous people over the years.

My dealings have been mostly with Tom and he is nothing short of a class act. I have always felt he and the company have a true passion for what they do and strive to build the best product they can and still make it affordable to the masses.

This winter we are starting a new home build and I am very excited to purchase some new HT equipment from SVS for a 7.2 set-up. They are right at the top of my list and even more so with their new products they are coming out with.

Well done. :clap:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,747 Posts
I was just about to recommend the MTS-02 speaker somewhere the other day since it seemed excellent, but I figured I'd at the very least gather some information before recommending something I've never heard. IMO good engineering is the key to a great speaker, not "taste", so I went to the SVS website and decided to see if they offered more than the usual fluff specs many companies do.

I very much commend SVS for offering detailed product specifications. It shows a company that's confident in their product with sound engineering principles, much like Ascend Acoustics, Gedlee, and Salk Sound. Granted, some of those companies give much better graphs with higher resolution/less smoothing and other valuable measurements but it's still a great start, relatively speaking.

However looking at it, I was shocked! More specifically, it was the impedance which shocked me. Granted, the electrical phase angles seem a tube amp or class d amp wouldn't necessarily mind - with no wild swings, but the impedance itself is just off the wall. These speakers are ridiculously current hungry. To call it a 4 ohm speaker is desparate... it only goes above 4 ohms above 7.5khz(where there usually isn't as much content in a musical or movie program)! For roughly half the audible frequencies, particularily the current hungry bass, upper bass and the entire midrange, it stays between 3 and 2.5 ohms... that's unacceptable to me! It dips as low as 2.2 ohms and really doesn't go above 3.5 ohms in this entire region. You would need noisy professional amplifiers to run these things comfortably... something that has a ton of current on tap without distortion or overheating. Now if this were a 95db sensitive speaker I could see it justified, but at 88.5db sensitivity, you already need to pump some power into it to get it to reasonable listening levels, and with that kind of current, it's just not something I can recommend.

I think it's unjustifiable to sell this to the consumer market as a passive speaker. Now as an active bi-or-tri-amped speaker I can imagine it working (and without the shortcomings of passive crossovers in general) but I really don't see how you can sell this thing as-is for a non-ultra-high-end-market. As a general rule IMO, you shouldn't need an amplifier costing more than the cost of your speaker just to drive it...that's just audiophile snake oil territory. I wouldn't even feel comfortable driving this thing with something like an Emotiva XPA-2, and that's probably the most powerful non-pro separates amp that costs less than the speakers. At the very least, a 4 ohm nominal speaker should be a 4 ohm nominal speaker... IE 4 ohms minimum in the higher energy parts of the frequency range(especially bass where there's usually more dynamic, but not limited to bass), with no dips below 3.5 ohms(which itself is lower than many entry level receivers like to go). That's something that I would feel comfortable pairing with, say, a Marantz SR5005 or Denon 3311, but also feel a worthwhile upgrade to a separates amp.

I wouldn't be surprised if owners of these speakers are listening to bright and muddy speakers trying to drive them off the amp sections of one-step-above-entry level receivers... which I'm sure was not the design goal for it. Those owners aren't wrong however... electronics, to an extent shouldn't be the final dictator of sound quality. Quality electronics are good, but shouldn't make or break the experience for anyone... especially not in this price range. I very much hope SVS comes out with an active loudspeaker, something you could just pair with a pre/pro and no need for separate amps, or use the pre-outs on a receiver. For a successful, well known, and ambitious company such as them, it only makes sense to not be a follower, but a trend setter.

EDIT: while it's not easy load for any receiver and a separate amplifier is very much necessary IMO, I've been told that this is in fact a necessary evil to make a good speaker. I still think making an active version is a better idea, but this speaker is not as out there as I initially thought. I guess it was just shocking to see real measurements and not marketing fluff.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,777 Posts
I now am testing a pair of the bookshelf MBS-02's with a 100wpc Onkyo receiver with absolutely no problems even at thx reference. Their sound quality is really good. I have watched several movies and audio cd's with great results. I will post a review soon. Dennis
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,747 Posts
I now am testing a pair of the bookshelf MBS-02's with a 100wpc Onkyo receiver with absolutely no problems even at thx reference. Their sound quality is really good. I have watched several movies and audio cd's with great results. I will post a review soon. Dennis
The MBS-02 impedance does not dip below 6 ohms, there's a big difference compared to the MTS-02 I was refering to, which I think is a very tough load. The bookshelf you're reviewing seems like an easy load, unlike its tower sibling.

As a bit of an aside, I doubt you're listening at true THX reference "cleanly"... that's 85db average with 20db dynamic range - that is, 105db SPL dynamic peaks out of each 82.5db sensitive 2-driver speaker and 100 watts of amplification...even 1m away with some wall gain you would barely hit that, and most certainly you're not listening that close. As soon as you sit a more likely 2.5m away you're going to run into amplification issues before even factoring in the inherent limiations of the 1" dome tweeter (crossed at 1.9khz... you're already asking a lot of it)and the single 7 inch woofer...

You're either unknowingly experiencing compression and lower bass distortion, or you're just not watching very dynamic movies. That doesn't even have to do with the SVS, it's just a matter-of-fact. There's few floorstanding speakers out there that can handle the dynamics of THX reference, and they usually still require separates amp to truly do it properly in most rooms. If the tweeter is not waveguide or horn loaded, I already doubt its ability to do reference level peaks - regardless of brand. If this is true, then I await your compression test measurements on the review samples and would love to hear them :)

Even THX 20db dynamic range are just guidelines, many movies break the rules and may have as much as 30-40db of dynamic range about 85db (!) (insane, yes...I agree.. I wouldn't bother with striving for that goal, although a pair of JTRs would be nice)
 
1 - 8 of 8 Posts
Top