[Harpmaker]

This thread will be about making our Black Widow™ mix darker, significantly darker. This thread is in the Developers forum because it is still in the early stages of development and not near ready for prime time, but folks have expressed an interest in it so if they are willing to experiment along with us they can.

A darker BW™ mix that shows promise is comprised of a base paint that is 50% PPG 'Bermuda Beige' and 50% N5 neutral gray with the standard 20% AAA-F included to boost gain and make the whole mix a neutral gray. This mix has an N value of 6.4 which puts it in the same neighborhood as the Stewart FireHawk screens.

As things stand right now you would have to get a quart each of PPG 'Bermuda Beige' and N5 neutral gray (I'll have to track down the tint formula for this) and mix 16 fl. oz. of each making a full quart of base paint. To this add the regular 8 fl. oz. of AAA-F to complete the mix.

I intend on developing a tint formula so folks can simply get a quart of paint made to that formula and then add 8 fl. oz. of AAA-F and be done.

For simplicity of naming we will call this mix BW™ N6.4.

 

[Pyrometman]

Ok, I'll get going on the known items. I've got Lowes, Home Depot, Dunn Edwards, and Sherwin Williams outlets near me. Please recommend which paint line you feel will be best for this test. I'm going to work hard to get everything together by this coming weekend as my new projector should be here sometime this week. Looking forward to advancing this paint mix :bigsmile:

 

[ALMFamily]

I apologize if I missed a prior thread discussing this, but what are the benefits provided by a darker BW mix in comparison to the current BW mix?

 

[Pyrometman]

I apologize if I missed a prior thread discussing this, but what are the benefits provided by a darker BW mix in comparison to the current BW mix?

The darker BW mix (BW™ N6.4) will allow me to use my new projector (Viewsonic Pro8200) on a sub 100" screen without burning my eyes out. It puts out a lot of light and rather than use a neutral density filter on the projector, it can be done with the screen. An additional benefit will be a greater tolerance to ambient light, allowing me to view comfortably with some light on in the room.

 

[ALMFamily]

Awesome - glad I subscribed. I will be following along closely to see how it goes and what your impressions are. Good luck!

 

[dwkdnvr]

Interesting that you use the full qty of AAA despite only having half as much of the B-B to 'correct'. Is this typical? Would there be any merit in trying a mixture with only 4oz of the AAA before adding the rest?

There doesn't seem to be a 5.0 on the list of neutral greys in the sticky thread, but there are some that are close. A direct comparison to a straight 6.x would also be interesting.

It'll probably be a couple weeks before I can try any of this, but having ordered the PJ I'm throwing my hat into the 'beta tester' ring.

 

[Pyrometman]

Ordered the Auto Air Aluminum from TCP Global website. Not sure where it is shipping out from but it should take no longer than 4 days. I picked up 16oz to cover this and possible one or two other experiments.

 

[Pyrometman]

Interesting that you use the full qty of AAA despite only having half as much of the B-B to 'correct'. Is this typical? Would there be any merit in trying a mixture with only 4oz of the AAA before adding the rest?

There doesn't seem to be a 5.0 on the list of neutral greys in the sticky thread, but there are some that are close. A direct comparison to a straight 6.x would also be interesting.

It'll probably be a couple weeks before I can try any of this, but having ordered the PJ I'm throwing my hat into the 'beta tester' ring.

dwkdnvr,

I am a bit concerned about this as well. By using only half of the pigments that are in the Bermuda Beige, do we risk having a blue push by using the standard amount of AAA? Are there enough pigments in the N5 neutral to help counteract the blue push? I think we should let Harpmaker weigh in on the methodology he settled on.

 

[Harpmaker]

I love it that you guys are thinking logically about screen mixes! :T

When I first started developing these mixes I thought as you did that I would have to have all the pigments from BB plus the added neutral gray, but that turned out not to be the case (for the life of me I still don't know why). If you can translate the info in the SRC chart title in the first post you will see that it consists of a base that is half BB and half N5 to which AAA-F is added in the standard 4:1 ratio. The result was VERY neutral. It left me scratching my head, but hey, I'll take it! :bigsmile:

As for the N5 formula, after reviewing my notes I see that I still don't have as neutral a formula as I would like, but it's extremely close. I hope you have Lowe's stores near you since Valspar Ultra Premium is the paint I will be using for testing these mixes.

I also find that I'm almost out of AAA-F myself! Time to stock up!

You guys are wondering how BW™ N6.4 would stack up against a simple neutral gray of the same shade, that is a very good question and one of the reasons this thread is in the Developers forum. There is always the chance that there simply won't be a big enough difference to warrant using BW™ N6.4.

 

[Pyrometman]

I love it that you guys are thinking logically about screen mixes! :T

When I first started developing these mixes I thought as you did that I would have to have all the pigments from BB plus the added neutral gray, but that turned out not to be the case (for the life of me I still don't know why). If you can translate the info in the SRC chart title in the first post you will see that it consists of a base that is half BB and half N5 to which AAA-F is added in the standard 4:1 ratio. The result was VERY neutral. It left me scratching my head, but hey, I'll take it! :bigsmile:

As for the N5 formula, after reviewing my notes I see that I still don't have as neutral a formula as I would like, but it's extremely close. I hope you have Lowe's stores near you since Valspar Ultra Premium is the paint I will be using for testing these mixes.

I also find that I'm almost out of AAA-F myself! Time to stock up!

You guys are wondering how BW™ N6.4 would stack up against a simple neutral gray of the same shade, that is a very good question and one of the reasons this thread is in the Developers forum. There is always the chance that there simply won't be a big enough difference to warrant using BW™ N6.4.

Harpmaker,

I have a Lowes about 1.5 miles from where I work, so absolutely no problem getting Valspar. As for whether or not BW™ N6.4 will work better than a simple neutral gray, that's why I'm here :bigsmile:

How big do you like your samples to be for spectral analysis?

 

[Henke]

Great thread, I shall watch it closely
Here's some ideas I have mulled over for a while...

From what I can gather a screen for ambience light environments is a dark screen that on axis acts as a lighter screen, brighter picture than what the dark shade would normally allow.
To me, that sounds like more AAA could be an approach, allowing for a darker basepaint and still quite bright picture on axis.

I played around with darker mixes a while ago and found out that an increase in AAA concentration greatly increased picture brightness.
In my projectorsetup with wide screen and quite short throw I started to see hotspotting when I approaced 30% AAA so no higher than that would work for me.
I also found out that above 40% AAA the brightness of the hotspot area was the same no matter how dark I made the basepaint.
I did note that the paint surface had gain some gloss, I don't think it was the denser aluminum particles that caused the gloss, I'm thinking more the clear medium in the AAA.
I think this added gloss might bring on hotspotting at lower aluminum concentrations than if the clear medium in the AAA would be totally flat.
If one could separate the aluminium from the medium and use only the Al in the paint that could perhaps allow more Al before hotspotting occurs.

I seem to remember a thread somewhere where someone compared AAA and BlackJack Aluminium and found that AAA had some gloss where Blackjack had none, sadly there were some reports of blackjack perhaps not being stable enough and some paintcans had ignited.

I do also believe there are other problems with higher Al concentration such as graininess although I didn't see that much difference in appeared graininess when I tested mixes between 10 and 50% AAA, the latter hotspotted like crazy though.

Now, higher AAA concentrations might be a way to increase brightness, but if one can't control or keep down hotspotting there is little point considering it...

 

[Harpmaker]

Harpmaker,

I have a Lowes about 1.5 miles from where I work, so absolutely no problem getting Valspar. As for whether or not BW™ N6.4 will work better than a simple neutral gray, that's why I'm here :bigsmile:

Glad to have you on board! :T

How big do you like your samples to be for spectral analysis?

About one square inch is all we need.

 

[Harpmaker]

Great thread, I shall watch it closely
Here's some ideas I have mulled over for a while...

From what I can gather a screen for ambience light environments is a dark screen that on axis acts as a lighter screen, brighter picture than what the dark shade would normally allow.
To me, that sounds like more AAA could be an approach, allowing for a darker basepaint and still quite bright picture on axis.

I played around with darker mixes a while ago and found out that an increase in AAA concentration greatly increased picture brightness.
In my projectorsetup with wide screen and quite short throw I started to see hotspotting when I approaced 30% AAA so no higher than that would work for me.
I also found out that above 40% AAA the brightness of the hotspot area was the same no matter how dark I made the basepaint.
I did note that the paint surface had gain some gloss, I don't think it was the denser aluminum particles that caused the gloss, I'm thinking more the clear medium in the AAA.
I think this added gloss might bring on hotspotting at lower aluminum concentrations than if the clear medium in the AAA would be totally flat.
If one could separate the aluminium from the medium and use only the Al in the paint that could perhaps allow more Al before hotspotting occurs.

I seem to remember a thread somewhere where someone compared AAA and BlackJack Aluminium and found that AAA had some gloss where Blackjack had none, sadly there were some reports of blackjack perhaps not being stable enough and some paintcans had ignited.

I do also believe there are other problems with higher Al concentration such as graininess although I didn't see that much difference in appeared graininess when I tested mixes between 10 and 50% AAA, the latter hotspotted like crazy though.

Now, higher AAA concentrations might be a way to increase brightness, but if one can't control or keep down hotspotting there is little point considering it...

Thanks for the observations and experimentation results! :T

I believe Mech found that increasing the amount of AAA-F produced a graininess in the image that was easy to see; can't remember if it hot spotted or not.

The thing about working with aluminum to increase gain is that one MUST use an existing paint and not dry Al flakes or powder, there is simply too great a risk of the aluminum producing an exothermic reaction and thus a fire potential. We have been very fortunate with AAA-F in that it has proven to be a safe paint in that respect and also that it is available almost world-wide. There is the possibility of using aluimnum particles designed to be added to automotive finishes, but I have a feeling these would be hard to source outside of the U.S..

 

[Pyrometman]

I will probably be delayed for a weekend to paint BW™ N6.4. I still have not received my AAA and won't be able to get my screen substrate until Sunday. I should receive the new projector today and will take the time to get it properly mounted. I will have to fabricate the mount myself due to the mounting situation but I have all of the materials for that already.

Harp, any progress on the N5 paint?

 

[Harpmaker]

Harp, any progress on the N5 paint?

I intend on getting some paints tomorrow. The Valspar N5 formula I have now is only for the Valspar 8 oz. sample jars which only come in satin finish. I'll try getting some in Sherwin-Williams paint as well.

 

[Pyrometman]

I intend on getting some paints tomorrow. The Valspar N5 formula I have now is only for the Valspar 8 oz. sample jars which only come in satin finish. I'll try getting some in Sherwin-Williams paint as well.

Thanks Harp. I'll patiently wait for your recommendation.

In the meantime, I'm going to do an OTS trial of Sherwin Williams Shingle Gray (SW 7670) using their Pro-Classic Smooth Enamel Satin base (ala the ProjectorCentral.com article). My best guess is that the paint is near an N6. Their website shows it is R-149, G-148, B-148. Not sure how accurate that is but it will be worth getting a screen up to watch something on. Like I said, I like to push the limits.

If I like the image on this screen, I'm sure I'll like the BW™ N6.4.

 

[Harpmaker]

Thanks Harp. I'll patiently wait for your recommendation.

In the meantime, I'm going to do an OTS trial of Sherwin Williams Shingle Gray (SW 7670) using their Pro-Classic Smooth Enamel Satin base (ala the ProjectorCentral.com article). My best guess is that the paint is near an N6. Their website shows it is R-149, G-148, B-148. Not sure how accurate that is but it will be worth getting a screen up to watch something on. Like I said, I like to push the limits.

If I like the image on this screen, I'm sure I'll like the BW™ N6.4.

SW 'Gray Shingle' makes for a very neutral N6. :T

 

[Starmaster]

Also a very interesting color i was looking at in the PPG line of paints is Dover Gray 518-5 R:132 G:133 B:133 as it looks to be between N6 and N5 not sure if i am that accurate but it looks like it by the gray scale, i might see if i can get a sample of this paint as PPG is just a few blocks from me, but i not sure at this time when and if that PPG paint store gives out a sample size to buy.

But thought i would throw in this color for now as i still have to make the screen yet first and i am getting kinda ready to do that, hope this color is a positive and if not, then on to the next color. :bigsmile:

 

[Harpmaker]

Also a very interesting color i was looking at in the PPG line of paints is Dover Gray 518-5 R:132 G:133 B:133 as it looks to be between N6 and N5 not sure if i am that accurate but it looks like it by the gray scale, i might see if i can get a sample of this paint as PPG is just a few blocks from me, but i not sure at this time when and if that PPG paint store gives out a sample size to buy.

But thought i would throw in this color for now as i still have to make the screen yet first and i am getting kinda ready to do that, hope this color is a positive and if not, then on to the next color. :bigsmile:

Interesting... , but unfortunately we haven't found the RGB values published by PPG to be very accurate. It might be neutral and it might not. :dontknow:

 

[Starmaster]

Interesting... , but unfortunately we haven't found the RGB values published by PPG to be very accurate. It might be neutral and it might not. :dontknow:

I was kinda wondering that myself as to how accurate RGB values were, as i thought i read that somewhere here on the forums but wasn't sure, well was worth a try anyways..i will then check on other brand paints then..:T

Edit: Came across this color by Valspar paints and looks close to being a N5, color is Almost Charcoal 4008-2B Ultra Premium and i don't see any RGB values for it, but not sure if it is neutral as all the other colors in that line of paint are neutral it says, so this color in their Grays and Blacks section could be neutral..but the bad part is that the city i am in doesn't have a Lowe's yet as the next city to me does already..but is another color that might show promise.