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Discussion Starter #22
I was kinda wondering that myself as to how accurate RGB values were, as i thought i read that somewhere here on the forums but wasn't sure, well was worth a try anyways..i will then check on other brand paints then..:T

Edit: Came across this color by Valspar paints and looks close to being a N5, color is Almost Charcoal 4008-2B Ultra Premium and i don't see any RGB values for it, but not sure if it is neutral as all the other colors in that line of paint are neutral it says, so this color in their Grays and Blacks section could be neutral..but the bad part is that the city i am in doesn't have a Lowe's yet as the next city to me does already..but is another color that might show promise. :)
The Valspar 'Almost Charcoal' sounds interesting. If the color swatch I found for it is true (125 RGB) it would be N5.2. I'll pick up a sample today. :T
 

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The Valspar 'Almost Charcoal' sounds interesting. If the color swatch I found for it is true (125 RGB) it would be N5.2. I'll pick up a sample today. :T
That would be awesome if it is near N5.2, i was gifted with very good color perception as i can see minor changes in color unless they are so close in color it would be harder to tell, but it has helped me in colors through the years..:bigsmile:
 

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Discussion Starter #24
I'll let you know how the paint samples I got today pan out tomorrow or Monday. I like to let the sample chits dry for an honest 24 hours before testing. Unlike what you may read on another DIY Screen forum :)whistling: :rofl:) you CANNOT judge the color of a paint when it's wet other than in the grossest terms.
 

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I'll let you know how the paint samples I got today pan out tomorrow or Monday. I like to let the sample chits dry for an honest 24 hours before testing. Unlike what you may read on another DIY Screen forum :)whistling: :rofl:) you CANNOT judge the color of a paint when it's wet other than in the grossest terms.
Sounds good and await the results of the latest testing and hopefully it will work out good. :D

Dover Gray should be pretty close. EasyRGB has it listed as 130 130 130. PPG has it at 114 114 117. :eek:
Looks like PPG is kinda whacked in the values indeed, yet the PPG i checked online shows the value at 132 133 133 for this Dover Gray, makes me wonder if different locations show different values which a person would think it shouldn't be different values, unless some locations are using a older software version in their pc for the colors.:dontknow:
 

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Just an update. Still waiting for the Auto Air Aluminum to show up. I imagine it will be here today but painting BW™ N6.4 will probably have to wait a couple of days due to other chores that must get done.

I set up the projector temporarily on a cart so the image is throwing up to the screen. It's not in it's permanent ceiling mounted location just yet as I need to fabricate the mount.

I did however obtain and complete a screen using the Sherwin Williams Gray Shingle (SW 7670) using the Pro-Classic Smooth Enamel Satin base. I used a 4x8 sheet of tempered hardboard and primed with Kilz 2 (one coat) and then after drying, painted with the Gray Shingle (one coat). After several hours of drying, I can report that the Satin sheen warm spots just a little. On really bright scenes, I can see it. On dark scenes, you can't. The good news is that blacks are really black and whites are not crushed. For me, the 92" image is comfortable to watch. Since I have an HDMI splitter, I was comparing to my 42" LCD at the same time and the image is similar on both. Perhaps the warm spotting will diminish with a bit more curing time.
 

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Nice to hear Pyrometman and nice work so far on this, and maybe with some more curing time that minor hot spotting will maybe go away. :T
 

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Discussion Starter #28
Before I can do much more on this project I'll have to get more AAA-F too. Forgot to do that over the weekend. :blush:

The darker neutral gray a paint is the more it will tend to hot spot with a given finish. I'm thinking that the Sherwin-Williams paints in satin finish if used alone won't go much below N8 without hot spotting becoming a problem.

The results of my neutral gray tests this weekend are below. In a nutshell, I don't know if mixing the SW N5 with BB to make BW™ N6.4 would work or not unless it was purchased in a matte finish paint, which removes ProClassic from consideration.



The Valspar 'Almost Charcoal' might be neutral enough for some folks, but it is getting quite close to our limits for acceptable neutrality.




As you can see from the title this is our 5th attempt at tweaking the tint formula for a N5 using Valspar paint. We now have it so it is neutral. The next challenge is to get it in a quart and maintain neutrality (the Valspar sample jars are a different paint than the Valspar interior paint we use for screen mixes).

The tint formula is:
Valspar 8 oz. sample
Base 4
101 - 10.25
107 - 1.25
109 - 0.75
113 - 23




The match I got at Sherwin-Williams for a N5 gray is neutral enough, but it's quite dark for a N5 coming in at a true N4.3. Again, this paint should only be used to make BW™ N6.4 if the PPG 'Bermuda Beige' it is mixed with is in a flat finish. even then it might hot spot.

 

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Harp,

Can the paint department at any Lowes translate the 8oz tinting to a full quart and get it correct? They also have color matching capabilities also so maybe that would work.

Can you give me a quick lesson on how the Valspar tinting system works? I'm used to the fractional ounce system.

Thanks for all your hard work.
 

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Harp,

I was looking at EasyRGB and found Dunn-Edwards DE6377 "Boat Anchor", listed as:

R-102.68, G-103.03, B-102.01

Might this be useful?
 

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Discussion Starter #31
Harp,

Can the paint department at any Lowes translate the 8oz tinting to a full quart and get it correct? They also have color matching capabilities also so maybe that would work.
I asked a guy at Lowe's that hitherto has known what he was talking about that question and he said they could. The thing is that what they mean by a "good color match" is a good bit less specific than what that term means to us. I haven't done it yet (I will next time I get to a Lowe's, but that might not be for a week) so I can only say that you can't simply multiply the tint amounts by 4 and get a good match.

Can you give me a quick lesson on how the Valspar tinting system works? I'm used to the fractional ounce system.
I would be happy to. The numbers to the left of the hyphen are the tint color and the numbers to the right are the tint amount in 48ths of a fluid ounce. I'll translate the formula for Valspar N5 #5 for you.

Valspar 8 oz. sample (this is the paint used)
Base 4 (the type of base used in that paint)
101 - 10.25 (BLACK tint, 10.25 48ths of an ounce)
107 - 1.25 (YELLOW OXIDE tint, 1.25 48ths of an ounce)
109 - 0.75 (RED OXIDE tint, 0.75 48ths of an ounce)
113 - 23 (WHITE tint, 23 48ths of an ounce)

The Lowe's tinting machines can process as little as 1/768th of an ounce of tint!

FYI, if you want to do your own color matching with neutral paints Golden makes them in N8 through N2. Michael's used to sell Golden paints, not sure if they do any longer or not. These are thick artist acrylics.

I was looking at EasyRGB and found Dunn-Edwards DE6377 "Boat Anchor", listed as:

R-102.68, G-103.03, B-102.01

Might this be useful?
It might be if you wanted a N4.35 neutral gray and had access to that brand paint. Another thing that you have to watch out for is what Illuminant is the listed color based on. Artist colors are usually for the C Illuminant and not for the D65 Illuminant used for video. Luckily the more neutral a color is the less illuminant type matters (a true neutral gray is neutral for all colors of light).

Thanks for all your hard work.
You're welcome! :T
 

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Really interested in this formula! Wish I had the spare money to experiment and help out. I'll definitely be wanting to try a sample soon.

I'm running an elektra mix that should be between 7.5-8. Even with my jvc, I wanna go darker. Unfortunately there's just no substitute for light and reflection control! Blows my mind how reflections off the screen and white walls murder the blacks into oblivion!
 

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To bad the 'Almost Charcoal' wasn't closer to neutral Harpmaker then it is, but nice work on this project thus far and was kinda hoping that the 'Almost Charcoal' would be a little better neutral color, the right combination will be found yet. :bigsmile:
 

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Harp,

Can you check your database for Dunn-Edwards DE6383 "BANK VAULT"? EasyRGB lists as 112.89, 111.39, 113.39

I have a Dunn-Edwards near me so if this is a decent match I would at least like to consider it.

I have the AAA on hand now and this weekend would be a good opportunity for me to complete the screen.

On a side note, the Sherwin Williams "Gray Shingle" in Satin sheen still warm spots after a few days of curing. As I have my projector table mounted, I am sure that when I ceiling mount that it would be a problem. Right now, the warm spot disappears "below" the lower edge of the screen and it isn't a problem. It would likely be in the middle of the screen after ceiling mounting.
 

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Discussion Starter #35
Harp,

Can you check your database for Dunn-Edwards DE6383 "BANK VAULT"? EasyRGB lists as 112.89, 111.39, 113.39

I have a Dunn-Edwards near me so if this is a decent match I would at least like to consider it.
My database? :scratch: I assume you mean the different paints I have measured with my spectro over the years, and I have never tested any Dunn-Edwards paints since they are not available to me.

The color seems to be quite neutral if the real paint matches the numbers. If you want to try and see if you can get a sample jar, make up a sample chit and mail it to me; I'll take a reading with my spectro and let you know the results. If you're interested in doing this just PM me for my address and a description on how to prepare and mail the sample (it's easy and only costs a first class stamp and an envelope).

I have the AAA on hand now and this weekend would be a good opportunity for me to complete the screen.

On a side note, the Sherwin Williams "Gray Shingle" in Satin sheen still warm spots after a few days of curing. As I have my projector table mounted, I am sure that when I ceiling mount that it would be a problem. Right now, the warm spot disappears "below" the lower edge of the screen and it isn't a problem. It would likely be in the middle of the screen after ceiling mounting.
Yeah, I made the mistake of getting some ProClassic in satin tinted to make BW™ with, but I doubt I'll do that now since I'm all but sure it would hot spot. The SW paints in satin finish and in N8 ('Unique Gray') did not hot spot for me, but it sounds like anything darker would.
 

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My database? :scratch: I assume you mean the different paints I have measured with my spectro over the years, and I have never tested any Dunn-Edwards paints since they are not available to me.
LOL, I guess I made a poor assumption based on you quoting a Munsell value for the previous Dunn-Edwards paint that I mentioned. Sorry for that. It seems that Dunn-Edwards is only available out here in the west.

The color seems to be quite neutral if the real paint matches the numbers. If you want to try and see if you can get a sample jar, make up a sample chit and mail it to me; I'll take a reading with my spectro and let you know the results. If you're interested in doing this just PM me for my address and a description on how to prepare and mail the sample (it's easy and only costs a first class stamp and an envelope).
I can stop buy the Dunn-Edwards store this afternoon and see what it takes to get a sample. If I can get one easily, then I'll PM you for directions for prep and mailing.

Yeah, I made the mistake of getting some ProClassic in satin tinted to make BW™ with, but I doubt I'll do that now since I'm all but sure it would hot spot. The SW paints in satin finish and in N8 ('Unique Gray') did not hot spot for me, but it sounds like anything darker would.
Well, we've learned something new...and something for future DIYers to avoid. It's all good :T
 

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Discussion Starter #37
LOL, I guess I made a poor assumption based on you quoting a Munsell value for the previous Dunn-Edwards paint that I mentioned. Sorry for that. It seems that Dunn-Edwards is only available out here in the west.
To convert from RGB to CIELAB data you can use the online EasyRGB calculator or you can download a similar free program by them that runs on your own PC (OpenRGB).

The results of the online calculator are (it is important that you select the D65 Illuminant and the 2° Observer):
HTTP = #716F71
Web safe = #666666
RGB 0-255 = 112.89 111.39 113.39
RGB 0-FF = 70 6F 71
RGB 0-0.1 = 0.44271 0.43682 0.44467
CMY 0-0.1 = 0.55729 0.56318 0.55533
CMYK % = 0.441 1.764 0.000 55.533
XYZ = 15.526 16.159 18.039
Yxy = 16.159 0.31224 0.32497
CIE-L*ab = 47.182 0.985 -0.910
CIE-L*CH = 47.182 1.342 317.270
CIE-L*uv = 47.182 0.732 -1.382
HunterLab = 40.198 -1.404 1.532

Illuminant = D65
Observer = 2° (1931)


This paint would have a N value of 4.7 (the L* value divided by 10).
 

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To convert from RGB to CIELAB data you can use the online EasyRGB calculator or you can download a similar free program by them that runs on your own PC (OpenRGB).

The results of the online calculator are (it is important that you select the D65 Illuminant and the 2° Observer):
HTTP = #716F71
Web safe = #666666
RGB 0-255 = 112.89 111.39 113.39
RGB 0-FF = 70 6F 71
RGB 0-0.1 = 0.44271 0.43682 0.44467
CMY 0-0.1 = 0.55729 0.56318 0.55533
CMYK % = 0.441 1.764 0.000 55.533
XYZ = 15.526 16.159 18.039
Yxy = 16.159 0.31224 0.32497
CIE-L*ab = 47.182 0.985 -0.910
CIE-L*CH = 47.182 1.342 317.270
CIE-L*uv = 47.182 0.732 -1.382
HunterLab = 40.198 -1.404 1.532

Illuminant = D65
Observer = 2° (1931)


This paint would have a N value of 4.7 (the L* value divided by 10).
Harp,

Thanks for the explanation. I went ahead and picked up a sample during lunch. Sent you a PM to get details.

FYI:

Dunn-Edwards DE 6363 "Bank Vault" Interior Velvet base "M"
8 oz. sample tinting (48ths):
04-1.6875
08-1.6875
13-8.9063

They only make the samples in Velvet sheen (5-9% gloss).
 

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Harp,

I have held off from sending you the sample of the Dunn-Edwards "Bank Vault". I've done a bit of reading about the development of BW™ and it is my understanding that the base paint has an influence on the performance. I don't want to attempt using anything other than the Valspar base paint for both the N5 and Bermuda Beige. Doing so would introduce an unwanted variable into this development.

I will hold off until getting my BW™ N6.4 painted to send you samples. I'll send the DE paint at that time too.

I had an idea that maybe we could try a neutral gray that is slightly lighter than N5 but already established as a neutral. I see on the sticky thread for neutral gray that there is a Glidden N5.2 (00NN 20/000 . . . "Grimmy's Grey"). Do you think that would that be acceptable?

I'm slowly getting around to putting together a new screen that is properly rigid (1x2 frame). My intended 16:9 diagonal is now approx. 95" due to using a thinner 3/4" border. I'm using a lumen rating of 1145 for my projector in the mode I am using ("Dark Room" with Eco mode ON).
 

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Discussion Starter #40
Harp,

I have held off from sending you the sample of the Dunn-Edwards "Bank Vault". I've done a bit of reading about the development of BW™ and it is my understanding that the base paint has an influence on the performance. I don't want to attempt using anything other than the Valspar base paint for both the N5 and Bermuda Beige. Doing so would introduce an unwanted variable into this development.

I will hold off until getting my BW™ N6.4 painted to send you samples. I'll send the DE paint at that time too.
No worries! :T

As for different paint brands affecting the performance of BW™, we haven't found it to cause a significant difference in performance. To illustrate what I mean I'll mention some extensive testing we did a number of years ago using AAA-medium instead of AAA-fine (don't use AAA-M because the flakes are too big). One of the properties of my test screens was that if I rubbed them with a latex or nitrile glove the aluminum flakes on the surface would flatten down and cause much more sparkle. I thought "Wow, that should add some gain to the mix!". I was amazed to find that it didn't add anything except sparkle! The images were not one bit brighter when compared side-by-side with a test panel that was left as-sprayed.

The thing that would probably cause a visible difference in performance would be if one base paint had more or less gloss that another.

I had an idea that maybe we could try a neutral gray that is slightly lighter than N5 but already established as a neutral. I see on the sticky thread for neutral gray that there is a Glidden N5.2 (00NN 20/000 . . . "Grimmy's Grey"). Do you think that would that be acceptable?
That would be fine, but my Lowe's stores don't have that color in their database. Also, I doubt that a N0.2 difference in shade would have much of an effect on the final mix.

I'm slowly getting around to putting together a new screen that is properly rigid (1x2 frame). My intended 16:9 diagonal is now approx. 95" due to using a thinner 3/4" border. I'm using a lumen rating of 1145 for my projector in the mode I am using ("Dark Room" with Eco mode ON).
BW™ N6.4 might be exactly what you are looking for. ;)
 
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