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Discussion Starter #63
What amount of gain would be expected of a darker black widow? I assume there are no measuements yet.
I have no idea, and gain (which always means peak gain unless otherwise stated) is something that one simply CAN'T guess at with any accuracy, there are just too many variables that comprise it. I always have to laugh when I see someone making a big deal over one or two tenths of peak gain. Those values equate to a 10% and 20% change in peak image brightness, but few people realize that it takes at least a 33% brightness change for any real difference to become readily apparent to the human eye. 33.3% is the equivalent of 1/3 of an f-stop on a camera exposure. Very few cameras have finer settings than 1/3 f-stop and back in the day of film cameras the smallest variance was usually 1/2 f-stop (a 50% brightness change).
 

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I'm about to receive an Epson 8500ub, and I can only project it at 100" diagonal max, so I'm looking for something dark for the screen. Also, I have white/beige walls and ceiling, and some directional gain would probably be nice. So... is this "blacker widow" considered ready for prime time now? Could I hope to get less graininess from it in such light cannon mode (as compared to regular BW™)? Or should I just forget directional gain and go with OTS grey instead?
 

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Discussion Starter #65
I'm about to receive an Epson 8500ub, and I can only project it at 100" diagonal max, so I'm looking for something dark for the screen. Also, I have white/beige walls and ceiling, and some directional gain would probably be nice. So... is this "blacker widow" considered ready for prime time now? Could I hope to get less graininess from it in such light cannon mode (as compared to regular BW™)? Or should I just forget directional gain and go with OTS grey instead?
Welcome to HTS! :wave:

If your PJ is mounted so close to the screen (projectorcentral says 9' 9") that you can only get a max. size of 100" that means you are getting ~54 fL of image brightness (also from the pc calc). That will almost melt your eyeballs. :yikes: I think I would simply use a darker neutral gray OTS instead of a reflectively enhanced mix like BW™.

At for BW™ N6.4, it is not ready for prime time and is still experimental at this point.

Since we don't know what is causing the apparent graininess in brighter BW™ images (we haven't been able to reproduce this effect ourselves) I don't know if BW™ N6.4 being darker would help, hinder or not make a difference. :dontknow:
 

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Not much interest/action on this thread in a while.

I got a rather amazing lesson in perception this weekend. I've been running a straight BW screen, but the surface prep was substandard so I knew it would eventually need to be re-done. I finally got around to starting 'round 2' this weekend, and started by painting my screen wall with the N5 mixture that I had originally gotten with the intent of trying BW6.4 - the intent was just to have a darker backdrop for the screen since it's been white up to now.
On a lark, I fired up the PJ and shot it at the N5 wall and was absolutely stunned at how well it performed. There is a definite mental discordance looking at a dark grey wall and seeing fairly bright whites and good colors coming off it. If this setup was movie-only in dim/dark conditions I might seriously consider staying this dark - the reduction in splash off the screen and resulting darker overall space was a big improvement in overall experience, but shadow detail didn't seem to suffer in my quickie test (first hour or so of LOTR - Fellowship, including the first encounter with the Rider in the woods). It didn't quite cut it for football where there was a fair bit of ambient light, though - not bad by any stretch, but didn't quite have the pop that we'd gotten used to for afternoon viewing.

So, my plan is to mix the remainder of the N5 with the remainder of the BW mixture I have and run with that. It won't be quite in the official/recommended BW6.4 proportions since I used a fair bit of the N5 to paint the screen wall, but it'll be substantially darker than standard BW.

I'll try to take a shot of the N5 screen along with the test board I have with stock BW, and I'll paint a section of that with my final mixture.

As a refresher, I'm using a Mits HC4000 on a rather small not-quite-constant-height screen (I zoom to switch aspect ratios). 16:9 is set to 34" high, 2.35:1 is set to 72" w. I haven't done the ft-l calcs, but even in low-lamp mode it's pretty bright.
 

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Not much interest/action on this thread in a while.

I got a rather amazing lesson in perception this weekend. I've been running a straight BW screen, but the surface prep was substandard so I knew it would eventually need to be re-done. I finally got around to starting 'round 2' this weekend, and started by painting my screen wall with the N5 mixture that I had originally gotten with the intent of trying BW6.4 - the intent was just to have a darker backdrop for the screen since it's been white up to now.
On a lark, I fired up the PJ and shot it at the N5 wall and was absolutely stunned at how well it performed. There is a definite mental discordance looking at a dark grey wall and seeing fairly bright whites and good colors coming off it. If this setup was movie-only in dim/dark conditions I might seriously consider staying this dark - the reduction in splash off the screen and resulting darker overall space was a big improvement in overall experience, but shadow detail didn't seem to suffer in my quickie test (first hour or so of LOTR - Fellowship, including the first encounter with the Rider in the woods). It didn't quite cut it for football where there was a fair bit of ambient light, though - not bad by any stretch, but didn't quite have the pop that we'd gotten used to for afternoon viewing.

So, my plan is to mix the remainder of the N5 with the remainder of the BW mixture I have and run with that. It won't be quite in the official/recommended BW6.4 proportions since I used a fair bit of the N5 to paint the screen wall, but it'll be substantially darker than standard BW.

I'll try to take a shot of the N5 screen along with the test board I have with stock BW, and I'll paint a section of that with my final mixture.

As a refresher, I'm using a Mits HC4000 on a rather small not-quite-constant-height screen (I zoom to switch aspect ratios). 16:9 is set to 34" high, 2.35:1 is set to 72" w. I haven't done the ft-l calcs, but even in low-lamp mode it's pretty bright.
Sounds good! If you could get a small sample to Harp or I to measure that would be great as well!
 

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What's the latest update on this? I now use Glidden "Veil" and I need a darker screen for ambient light. Can anyone recommend a Darker BW mix? I have an Epson 5020.

thanks
 

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Any update on this mix?

Specifically, whats actually missing at this point besides confirming readings? Looks like the formula is generally posted?
 

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I want to throw my hat in the ring and help out. Thanks to the community for all of the information already provided.

Here is my background - My previous theater was tiny, 8ft throw with a panny 200 in a pretty light controlled room; dark grey ceiling, dark walls and floors. The short throw forced me to have an 81 inch screen, which when bright white, caused me to squint. I was pretty ignorant at the time, now i realized that I projecting at 45-50 fl. I was using BW on that screen but obviously deeper blacks were still desired.

I just relocated from Cincinnati to Miami, Fl last week and I'm in condo with light walls and ceiling with plenty of ambient light during the evening. I picked up an Epson 8350 with 500 hours on the bulb and need to make a screen. I have a 12 foot throw and am looking to have 92 inch screen which i think puts me in the ball park of 22-24 fl.

I want to give this mix a try and see what kind of performance I get as well as help the community. What are the next steps to take and are there any suggested changes to the formula? I have a Home Depot, Lowes, Benjamin Moore, and a Sherwin Williams all within 5 miles of my place, so I hope I can get what we need.

I think this was the latest update and the formula followed by Pyrometman:
  • 16 ounces Bermuda Beige - Valspar Super Flat - Base C
  • 8 ounces AAA fine.
  • 16 ounces N5 - I am guessing the Valspar N5 sample was upped to make a quart.
Valspar 8 oz. sample (this is the paint used)
Base C (the type of base used in that paint)
101 - 10.25 (BLACK tint, 10.25 48ths of an ounce)
107 - 1.25 (YELLOW OXIDE tint, 1.25 48ths of an ounce)
109 - 0.75 (RED OXIDE tint, 0.75 48ths of an ounce)
113 - 23 (WHITE tint, 23 48ths of an ounce)​

I am planning on rolling this with a 1/4 in nap roller, but I have not decided on a substrate yet. It will probably be masonite on a pine frame unless someone can provide me with a better idea.

Can I supply samples to anyone? Is there a size or substrate requirement for the samples?
 

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Discussion Starter #72
Welcome to HTS maxposure! :wave:

Sorry for the delay in this response, the weekend is a busy time for me. :hide:

I just got back up to speed on where we left off in development. You are correct in simply dividing the quart N5 formula to get the tints needed for an 8 oz. sample, but there is a problem - the sample paint may not be the same as the paint used to make quarts. I just had some Valspar samples made up last Friday (I'm looking for a darker neutral gray) and the sample jars still use the old numerical base system; also they are only available in Satin finish which would add too much gloss to the final mix in the case of BW™ N6.4 since the N5 makes up half of the mix. To be sure of getting a good neutral N5 gray paint in the correct gloss level I would recommend getting a full quart in the Valspar Ultra in either Flat or Super Flat finish.

Just ask for Valspar Ultra in Super Flat finish tinted to PPG 'Bermuda Beige' #427-2. The base should be the equivalent of the old Base 1, but Lowe's tinting computer will tell them what base to use, all you do is provide the color name in this case.

Feel free to send me any paint samples you want tested for color or neutrality. Just PM me for my address and instructions on how to mail them. Sample size should be about 1 inch square, but larger is OK.
 

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Thanks Harp,

I'm a terrible lurker and realize that I need to give back to the internet every now and then. Besides living next to every paint store imaginable, I also live within 10 miles of two official AAA suppliers! Talk about convenience! Unfortunately both of them were out of Aluminum (Fine), so back to amazon I went. I ordered 16 ounces in case we want to try a second formulation of this.

I built the fame and the screen this weekend and put 3 coats of a grey primer on it so that I could shoot an image while I wait for the AAA to arrive. Now it looks like one of my boards is bowing towards the center making the screen slightly convex. I will have to deal with that somehow.

I copied the N5 measurements from somewhere else in the thread. I did not see a formula for the quart size, and I will admit my ignorance but is making a quart literally just doubling the amount of each pigment? Can you confirm what I should be asking for when I go the the Lowes counter so I don't screw it up?

Also, I know that you were looking to develop a single color that you could mix with the AAA to achieve BW 6.4. Would it be helpful to receive a sample of just the two base paints (BB and N5) mixed together?
 

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Thanks Harp,

I'm a terrible lurker and realize that I need to give back to the internet every now and then. Besides living next to every paint store imaginable, I also live within 10 miles of two official AAA suppliers! Talk about convenience! Unfortunately both of them were out of Aluminum (Fine), so back to amazon I went. I ordered 16 ounces in case we want to try a second formulation of this.
I'm green with envy! :D Having those paint stores so close would be a dream; the closest store to me is 25 miles away (50 mile round trip). :gulp:

I built the fame and the screen this weekend and put 3 coats of a grey primer on it so that I could shoot an image while I wait for the AAA to arrive. Now it looks like one of my boards is bowing towards the center making the screen slightly convex. I will have to deal with that somehow.
I can see where this would bother you aesthetically, but the good news is that with the screen paint options promoted here a non-perfectly-flat screen should not matter during viewing.

I copied the N5 measurements from somewhere else in the thread. I did not see a formula for the quart size, and I will admit my ignorance but is making a quart literally just doubling the amount of each pigment? Can you confirm what I should be asking for when I go the the Lowes counter so I don't screw it up?
For reference, the post where the N5 formula is given for a quart and the neutrality measured is here. Making a quart of paint from a tint formula for an 8 oz. sample means quadrupling the tint amounts since a quart is 4 times the volume.

Also, I know that you were looking to develop a single color that you could mix with the AAA to achieve BW 6.4. Would it be helpful to receive a sample of just the two base paints (BB and N5) mixed together?
Thanks for the offer, but no, I have those paints already. :T
 

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Thanks for the update.

I received the AAA earlier than anticipated yesterday, so I headed to Lowes and picked up the base paints. I used a 2:2:1 ratio to mix a quart of paint and used a 3/16 nap roller to lay on two coats with a couple hours separating them.

I put on the wall and used the AVS calibration videos to dial in the brightness and contrast. I am very impressed. The screen seems very neutral to me, no obvious issues with color push in any direction; and my blacks have never been better. Also no graininess or sparkling 12 hours in. In fact this looks much better than the original black widow application. That screen always has a 'shimmer' to it; I just expected that it was supposed to be that way! I can definitely see the aluminum working on an all white field but it doesn't seem to be obvious every time there is a solid blue sky.

I will post some photos this evening. Any screens shots or patterns preferred? I know how to work a camera so if you have any pointers on grabbing the right exposure, I would be happy to take them.
 

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Thanks for the update.

I received the AAA earlier than anticipated yesterday, so I headed to Lowes and picked up the base paints. I used a 2:2:1 ratio to mix a quart of paint and used a 3/16 nap roller to lay on two coats with a couple hours separating them.

I put on the wall and used the AVS calibration videos to dial in the brightness and contrast. I am very impressed. The screen seems very neutral to me, no obvious issues with color push in any direction; and my blacks have never been better. Also no graininess or sparkling 12 hours in. In fact this looks much better than the original black widow application. That screen always has a 'shimmer' to it; I just expected that it was supposed to be that way! I can definitely see the aluminum working on an all white field but it doesn't seem to be obvious every time there is a solid blue sky.
Great to hear the new screen seems to be working to your satisfaction. It's a bit of a conundrum why your regular BW™ screen had a shimmer problem and the darker version doesn't. :scratch: :huh: FWIW, it has ben my experience that colors in low-component count mixes such as we advocate on this forum are fairly color-stable after 12 hours of drying time, but it is still better to wait at least 24 hours before you do any real PJ calibration on them. The high-component count mixes advocated on another forum may not stabilize for up to a week, and will still continue to slowly yellow due to their polyurethane content.

I will post some photos this evening. Any screens shots or patterns preferred? I know how to work a camera so if you have any pointers on grabbing the right exposure, I would be happy to take them.
Any family-friendly images you want to post would be fine. It's hard to tell anything about screen performance from taking photos of a single screen, but we here at HTS like "eye candy" as much as the next forum. ;) To really get a handle on screen attributes it take a comparison image so we can see at least an "A/B" image of two screens reflecting the same image at the same time. That is when images like color or contrast bars are useful.

Having the camera set to AUTO is a good place to start for "screenies". I like to zoom into the image so that there is a small black "frame" around the image. Other than that, you can play with the cameras setting for ISO speed and exposure until the photo the camera takes is the closest to what you are seeing with your eyes. Be aware that it may not be possible to truly capture what you are seeing due to the camera not having the dynamic range of the human eye. This is not really a fault of the camera since mimicking the eye isn't really it's job. That may sound wrong, but think about it for a moment, most cameras are designed to produce the "best" quality image possible under a given situation. This means it corrects for a wide range of conditions that would lead to a less than stellar image such as mismatched color sources, low light situations, high dynamic range images (faces brightly exposed on one side and in deep shade on the other). Most digital cameras do quite sophisticated image processing before they store the image.
 

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Sorry I am so late in updating the forum..... ya know.... life gets in the way.

Well I have a few screenies for you, but nothing magical. When I downloaded the images I realized that I had my ISO set too high. Except for the image noise, I feel that the imgages do a very good job of representing the picture. Ignore the small box in the center of my screen and the green light at the bottom center. That is light reflecting off my center channel which needs a new home.





My feelings on the screen after a week:
BW 6.4 has given me the best blacks I have ever seen from my Epson 8350, but of course it does sacrifice some of the pop from the whites. There is definitely a bit of a dullness to the whites when compared to my last BW screen, but not enough that it seems to bother me. I actually feel that I have a better dynamic range overall now that my blacks can get very dark.

Although the screen is dark there is plenty of brightness to the image at night, and I can get great ambient viewing during the day by bumping the PJ into Living Room mode. Absolutely no hot spotting what-so-ever.

No graininess on the images. Like I said before, I remember more of a shimmer on my old BW screen; its possible that I mixed that batch incorrectly. I can just barely see the aluminum flakes when I hold a flashlight right up on the screen.

Overall I am very happy, I do miss the slight brightness pop but I am just so pleased with my blacks and shadow detail that it is easy to forget about it. When using a stronger PJ like the 5020 or AE8000, I'm sure this formula could be really strong contender if you are doing a lot of ambient light viewing.
 

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Thank you for sharing the screenies with us, but thanks even more for the detailed review of this screen mix. :TT
 

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I wanted to update the thread with some new information, as I just discovered that I made this screen using the new batch of AAA-F. I am going to guess that my screen came out mostly neutral because I mixed this with Valspar N5 concoction that Harp put up.

I stated previously that my new BW 6.4 screen did not have the occasional shimmer that my old BW screen showed. Now after evaluating my screen for a while, I never seem to see any minor reflectivity, not a single sparkle or shine on solid colors. I know we don't want to see these things normally but I remember that if I took a light source, like an LED flashlight, right up to my old screen I was able to see some of the aluminum reflecting. I did this when I first painted the BW 6.4 and felt that I could see a little. Two months later, if I take the flashlight to the screen, I see nothing but a matte grey surface.

I am wondering if this new formulation of AAA displays the same as the old.
Harp or Mech, have either of you done close up comparisons (microscope) to see if there might be a difference?

I guess it is possible that I mixed both batches incorrectly. I have plenty of unmixed paint left over. Would it make sense to mix the BB and N5 paints together and roll on a test sheet for a side by side comparison to see what amount of reflectivity I received from the AAA? Or will the results be so different that it would not be a fair judge. I am considering buying a calibration device. If either of you have a recommendation that won’t break the bank, I'd love to hear it.
 
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