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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am building a new home and my contractor suggested a young man to help with surround system. He immediately recommended an NXG system based on good sound at great price though price, he is finding out, is not the ultimate driving factor. He also recommended Atlantic Technology as a 2nd option if I could spend more, and I can. After joining your site, I now know I should have been shopping for months before having to make this decision. I live in a small town and do not have many options for listening to quality speakers. I have 2 questions. How to decide quickly on a surround system in the $2-3K range AND will this surround sound 5.1 system satisfy my greater desire for listening to music or should I purchase a separate 2 speaker system for my music enjoyment. Help, and Thanks for any insight you can offer!
 

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What have you had previously and which did you prefer?

I could give you many recommendations but they would only be based on my opinion and budget. You may prefer other types.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thank you very much for your reply! Some background might be helpful.

I have never owned a surround sound system. For live performance, I use a small Bose Compact L1 which makes voice, guitar and piano sound natural without false coloration so when watching a concert on TV or a movie, I have just plugged the bose stick into my flat screeen and enjoyed a better sound than the TV offered. For Music Only purposes, I own an old version of a JBL studio, always "flat". NOTE: I will listen to music MORE OFTEN than watch movies, so I have hoped that speakers chosen would double as a front duo that would satisfy my demanding taste for natural sounding music speakers. IF that is not possible, I'd rather spend less on a surround system and spend more on 2 music speakers for my "music world" OR let the music speakers be a future purchase? My answer to your question about budget will be for the surround and music speakers only, not including labor, etc. I am definitely willing to spend $2K and might be willing to go $3K, maybe more?? In addition, I will also install a "ceiling speaker" in 3 rooms and patio, but NOT looking for a whole house sound system. Your comments on a "ceiling speaker" would be appreciated, as well. In-Wall speakers are a necessity for the surround system, though the 2 front L/R speakers could be housed floor level behind cabinet doors with a grille or cloth on front. Back ones will be hidden in a large upper section dividing the living room and kitchen areas. Ceilings in the room are 18-20 feet. Based on the quote below your post, I will STOP now and be very appreciative of your response! kf
 

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First off, Welcome to the Shack.
My experience has been that in-wall speakers are a whole different animal. My guess is that speakers available in your budget would not satisfy your "demanding taste for natural sounding music speakers". I know you really want to make a decision soon but is there any way you can go audition some of the speakers you are considering?

The installer is also a key component of in-wall speakers. Make sure they know what they are doing as you cannot move the speakers to enhance the sound once they are in place. Though some speakers do have a limited ability to tilt or swivel within their mounts.

Another important factor is the "back box". Many of the less expensive in-wall speakers do not use any type of enclosure using a free air design that relies on your 2x4's and drywall. I have yet to hear a great sounding system that uses this type of speaker.

I have heard quite a few in-wall home theater systems over the years. Triad Speakers systems I have heard were all fantastic, as were the RBH Sound and James Loudspeakers systems. I have also heard a few Polk, JBL, Infinity, Atlantic Technology and Definitive Technology that were, well, better than the TV speakers. This is just my experience and I do not know if the installers of those systems were at fault or if it was the speakers.

So if at all possible get out there and listen to some systems before you pull the trigger.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Great response. Great advice. My learning curves continues based on your response and my continued research. Just 10 minutes ago, became aware of Triad speakers and have left message to find a listening room within 100 miles of my location. Again, thanks!
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Mark, your response to me was tempered with much wisdom and genuine concern that I would do the "right thing". Finally, today, I got to listen to some Triad Bronze speakers. I had upgraded my budget from $3-4K up to $10K or more, as you suggested. Here is what "HIT ME' today, though, when listening to the bronze and silver speakers. They DO sound great, but without the sub, they would never meet my demands for a great MUSIC speaker. Maybe having 6 of them going at the same time ... ?? Since I have never been a movie enthusiast and likely never will be, but AM a music enthusiast and always will be, my experience today made me go back to the drawing board and wonder if I should forego a high end surround sound system and instead, spend a third of my budget on an Atlantic Tech or equivalent system and then the lion's share of my budget on 2 state of the art music speakers that would wow the music man inside me. I know you cannot truly answer this for me ... but do YOU think that 6 Triad Bronze and a 12" sub would satisfy the demand in me for a critical music system in addition to being a great surround system?

Last question, IF I were willing to spend whatever it took to find 2 speakers that would satisfy the "flat" concert style sound that I desire ... would you name a few companies that excel in that high-end stereo market? I will likely drive to Dallas or other major market area to listen to speakers in the next week or so, but could not pass up the opportunity to from hear you again on this subject. Again, thank you very much for you kind input! Any follow-up thoughts will be great appreciated! kf
 

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Are you still only wanting in wall speakers?

For a budget, such as you stated, there are quite a few speakers out there that I would suggest listening to if you are not looking for in wall. If wanting only in wall then please disregard my comment.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Right now, this can go 2 directions: And again, thank you for the time you are giving me! Much Appreciated!

1) Very modest in-wall small surround system (NXG/Atlantic/etc.) for that occasional movie and maybe it would enhance watching HD tv and an occasional tv concert and fill in the room for rv ... BUT, when it came to music time, I would have, in addition, 2 separate floor MUSIC speakers that would bring the music to life, as my studio JBL's have done for the past 30 years in this small modest home. In my thought process, these 2 speakers might not need the help of a sub to get the job done. These 2 speakers would NOT be in wall, but likely sitting behind the 2 bottom cabinet doors on either side of the fireplace, with grilles on front. The way the room is designed, there really is no place for super large speakers to be "out" in the open, though there is still time to design the cabinets to fit a specific speaker. We are drawing the living room cabinets on either side of the fireplace this week.

2) The 2nd scenario is to find and get comfortable with a surround sound system of high enough quality that it will first satisfy the need for superb music reproduction (I would likely get comfy with music coming from all sides and not my normal 2 speaker front) and then, of course, this system would double as wonderful for TV and that occasional new or old movie. But, I am no longer willing to sacrifice my music for an occasional movie. Note: I thought that the Triad Golds were $1K each, but now they are closer to $2K each, so by the time I bought 6 of these (one of my installers says 7 speakers is the minimum for true surround system - you can comment on that, though, I think I agree?) that is $12K and we are near my budget and have not bought amps, wiring or speakers for patio and 3 other rooms in the house. The golds would take me to $20K+ and I don't think I need to go there for a speaker system. So, now you see my thought process. Would 7 Golds and a nice Sub satisfy my music experience ... I would think so? But, will 6 of the Bronze 5" with sub do it? Not sure after sitting in his "small" room listening yesterday while considering my very large room.

Again, thanks for wading through all my words to hear my heart! Note: I am a 5 hour drive from Dallas on any day. Next Thursday, I will be in Denver with about 3 hours to spare if you knew of a great listening room. I will be in NY on Monday and Tuesday, though I would have to stay an extra day if I were to listen there and lose my only day in the office next week?? Dallas or Denver would work best if you know of a spot in either place?
 

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My biggest concern would be placement choices. You mentioned having these speakers behind a grille in a cabinet or something like that. What height does the cabinet go up to?

I am curious if the speakers will be abled to be toed in or not? If they will rest at ear height or not also?

For store bought speakers it is just a matter of what do you want to spend and do you have time for a sit down with them for at least an hour. I would suggest looking at JTR's speakers such as the 8HT (triple 8) or if you have the room the triple 12's.

Or have a look at Mark Seaton's Catalyst speaker


BUT what is the ideal size you would like to stay with in for external dimensions for your L/R speaker?

I can list you a huge list of speakers that I like but it comes down to what fits your criteria. Clearly budget is the easy part here but we just need to work out the other requirements to narrow the list down. I think just using a very high quality L/R speaker would be the way to go for your requirements. Just add in small surrounds and be done. So when you watch a movie you have the surround sound but the money mainly goes to the L/R speaker. Only other concern would be the center channel. Listening to DVD's you might notice a tonal or timbre change in sound going from a pan from left-center -right. So if this bothers you then you may want to buy 3 of the same high quality speakers for the front stage.

I myself cant have two different types of speakers up front. I need 3 of the exact same speakers but the surrounds are not as much of a concern to me.

SO tell us more and I will narrow down some of my suggestions. I only gave you a few suggestions but can think of about 20-30 off the top of my head.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Thank you so much for your latest thoughts. It's Mark, isn't it?

My builder says the current configuration of the 2 cabinets are 36" high on outside but only about 30-32" on the inside. They are NOT built yet, only in drawing stage, but he is a stickler for proper proportions between fireplace center section and the 2 side sections with cabinet in bottom and book cases above the cabinets, so he is certainly NOT going to draw a cabinet 5 feet high with bookcases starting from there. So, do we have some wiggle room, yes ... but not lots, is my educated guess.

When I first looked at the speaker pictures, my thought was "No tweeters"? How can a high-end speaker have NO tweeter?? BUT, I AM enjoying the prospect of finding a speaker built by a gifted, artistic craftsman that is not from a department store, cookie cutter mentality!

I listened to NXG speakers today. NO WAY! I definitely want to head the direction of 2 very nice up front speakers, maybe 3 if the 3rd one can go sideways and there is enough room above the TV unit And then add 2 in the rear for occasional use. So, while you are offering suggestions, I now believe the 2 back ones do not have to be top of the line, but they cannot be NXG, so suggestions there would be helpful. This installer likes Atlantic and I will listen to that system tomorrow.

I want to place a ceiling speaker(s) in the dining room, bathroom, outdoor patio and possibly the kitchen area possibly that extends from the living room. Suggestions for in-ceiling speakers would be helpful. I do NOT want NXG's $100 models!

Can I assume that we have now eliminated the need for a big SUB, and just let the 2 high-end front speakers handle the bass? One last question ... should I ever consider doing a "re-cone" or other treatment to my 2 old JBL studio monitors or just let them fade into the distance. They are not what they once were (25 years). They are fading quickly and fairly harsh at volumes other than very low! Thanks again VERY much for your help.
 

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A subwoofer is still needed. Music may only play down to a certain frequency but movies do not. Having capable mains is a start but you will still need a sub to take the load off of your mains. While some L/R speakers can play down to 20hz it is amazing what adding in a subwoofer does. Sounds so much more lively and aids in punch and clarity. That being said you want to make sure the sub is integrated well so it feels like the sub is not there but the L/R just go lower.

Secondly if you are will to do a recone why not consider DIY speakers? And which model JBL's do you have?

Most of the time we should aim for having the speaker aimed at our ears, so roughly 25-32" for height. But if they are set lower or higher we only need to tilt the speaker down or up. So if you only have 32" to play with then a speaker around 30" tall max would be my suggestion. How wide are the speaker locations?

For now the JTR Triple 8 would be one suggestion along with Mark's Catalyst 8c. DO you ever travel to Atlanta?

Atlanta has another speaker designer named Tom Danley. Danley Sound labs. Those speakers to me are the best of the best, but are not cheap and not small. Mark Seaton and Tom used to work together and are definitely world class designers. Both make amazing products. Marks 8c is fully powered and could be connected directly to a Oppo 103 for pure music delight. Then add in a powered subwoofer and your 2 channel setup is done. I am a big fan of purity and media player to speaker is about as pure of a signal as your going to get.

I will have a look at some more surrounds. BUT for the money that you have suggested as a budget $100 per speaker will not cut it.

My name is David by the way. :D
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Thank you, David! I know Mark has been visiting with me, also. Actually, I'm pretty blown away by the time and energy you all are gifting to me and I will pass it on in areas where I am as strong as you are in this area. Very insightful questions, some I can answer, some not until I get with builder over the week-end and look at his cabinet drawings. I will answer your questions in the order you posed them and look forward to your response. BTW, every time you guys mention something I have never heard before, I stop and google it. i.e., Tom Danley, what a story. The Seaton speakers - wow and the JRT 8ht would likely fit in my cabinet. The Danley's all look too large.

Sounds like I must first choose speakers before picking a sub to make sure they "fit"! That is my top priority, in addition to building our first home, building a business, 3 new grandchildren, and that is why DIY does not sound appealing right now. MY JBL's are Model 4312A.

The height and width of cabinet will be worked out over the week-end. Obviously, this is not the order you build a great system. The dimensions for the 3 unit living room wall system was in place before I got serious. Out of order, I know, but it is what is! With your and Mark's help, I will make the best and the best will be great!

I listened to the $100 NXG's today, thinking I might get by with a couple in the back, but no way. So, in review, here are my decisions, as I see it, and in approximate order. I have a competent installer who does lights and sound for concerts and installs surround systems. But, you guys are light years beyond his ability to offer the advice that you are offering and I will continue to say how grateful I am for your input. I have asked Seaton and JTR for listening rooms within 300 miles of me. Have not heard back from them yet.

1. Determine cabinet dimensions
2. 2 Front L/R speakers
3. 1 Center Channel Speaker
4. Sub to match
5. 2 back surround speakers
6. Power to drive system
7. Ceiling speakers for 3 rooms
 

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Just thought I would add a video for you. I have seen this guys videos countless times. I really like the old big cabinet JBL speakers. There is better technology today but these old speakers hold a sentimental value to me. So you may want to just recone your JBL and keep them some where.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
chrapladm,

I think 2 great guys have responded to me, though not sure other than David and Mark. Thanks for your help!

I relate to the sentimentality about my JBL's. I'm with you ... I would never get rid of my JBL's. And I will likely re-cone in the future but I am not counting on them for my new living room configuration. I'll ask later about re-coning.

Met with builder and it is not possible to get EXACT and FIRM dimensions on the inside of my cabinets. A very educated guess is minimum of 28" high inside and maybe as much as 32"ish by lowering the bottom closer to floor, etc. ... might get 34" ... but that would have to be the top. So, when considering your important point of toe-in from floor position, my "guess" is no speaker over 30" inch high, to be fairly safe. Your recommendation of JRT's Triple8's more than meets these requirements, though I know you wanted me to listen to more than the JRT only. Mark Seaton's Catalyst were 40ish high and double the price. IF the JRT's were found to be "my style", I can buy 2 3X8ht's, 1 of the 3x8lp, 2 slanted 8ht's and a sub-woofer for a full surround sound and within my new budget. NOTE: The 2 slanted 8ht's leave 1/4" on top and bottom of the only holes available for the back speakers. I don't want to sound too mystical here, :) but with your recommendation of the JRT's and all the reviews and threads I have read ... just can't believe I would not enjoy the sound. FYI, I offered to Jeff to buy 2 and pay shipping to and back if I did not like them. He has no-one in my area for listening, so I thought I would make the offer.

SO, I am now ready for any other suggestions for listening to suggested speakers. I will be in Denver Thursday afternoon if you know of a listening room. I am wide open for ideas. I pre-wire the house tomorrow for sound, internet, and tv. We are running wire to all the places that I know will have a speaker and hoping for the best. I could not put off the builder any longer. He has been patient with me and meeting you has been the answer to my dilemma ... and I will try to repay you guys in some tangible ways for your kindness and expertise.

FYI ... I love local stories of success ... my financial planning practice is a local success story, but when I called the JRT 800 number and Jeff answered on a Friday evening, I must admit that I now WANT his speakers to be my answer. I LOVE local folks who dream big, keep it simple and find a way to "do" their dream, not just talk about it! Jeff seemed like a superb human specimen! :) Thanks for your suggestions.

NOTE: I would not trust my installer to make these kinds of speaker decisions for me, but I do trust him to get it wired right and the holes cut, etc. He is running speaker wire and lots of Cat5 for internet and phones tomorow ... is there a specific minimum size speaker wire that he should be running for quality speakers?? One installer said he runs Cat 6 instead of 5, but did not say why? Any thoughts on that? Again, THANKS! Ken
 

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CAT-8C

Internally tri-amplified (500W-350W-150W) loudspeaker
8" coaxial midrange w/Neodymium magnet 1" HF driver
dual, custom 8" sealed woofers
Intended operating range: 65-20,000 Hz
28" H x 11" W x 11.625" D
65 lbs
Neodymium Magnetic grill retention (no grill pegs!)
$2,495 each + shipping

So these will fit also. Marks 8C is more expensive but this is a fully active powered loud speaker. SO with the additional high quality plate amp that is why the 8C is so much more than the JTR's. BOTH are great designs with countless happy customers. Also there are some Danley Synergy horn speakers that will fit in your 28" height. It is just a matter of how wide do you have to work with. BUT in saying this Danley speakers are very expensive. They are not powered and close to the same price as the 8C. BUT from everyone who has taken the plunge they all say this is the last speaker they will ever buy.

So with either of the three I think you will be pleasantly surprised and happy. Just remember by going with the JTR's make sure you get a powerful amp to drive those speakers. Having small amounts of power aya sound nice but the speaker will really come alive with having LOTS of power.(Around 1000watts to each Triple 8) And Marks have about the same amount of power.

Having enough power helps with dynamics and everything else. And the best thing about all these manufacturers I have suggested is that you can speak with all of them. Instead of like the big brands whom you would never be able to speak to the designers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Thank you for such a quick response! I have never worked with "powered" speakers. Does that mean you would only be buying a "mixer" and not a power amp?? I will research some on my trip. It sounded like you are suggesting that I would need an amp with 5000 watts if I use 5 JTR speakers? The Onkyo amp that my guy was suggesting was not near that much power! Ken
 

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Your Onkyo would probably have plenty of power. I am only suggesting to get the most from your speakers you will need a lot more wattage than 100-150watts. Usually having double the rated RMS rating is what you would want ideally. BUT you dont NEED to have this. Just something you can use down the road to get everything out of your speakers. If buying an Onkyo just try and get one with preouts for all the channels.

Do you have a Blu Ray player yet?

If you dont I would highly recommend using a Oppo 103 BR player. This BR player can be connected to a hard drive and you can play all your music files from the player. Or you can use the BR player as a preamp and connect your powered speakers directly to the player. Or if using the JTR speakers you can connect the BR player to your power amps and then to your JTR speakers.

So many options to utilize. When going with just a AVR such as the Onkyo you will only have to have one unit and a BR player for electronics. When using just a BR player you would have to have separate amps for the speakers. Which means more components.

SO its up to you. If you want to minimize as much as possible then the AVR and BR player are all you need. If you like to have the most out of everything then the separates would be the better option although take up more room. But it would be bet to tell your builder of this so he knows what you are trying to shelve.

Having a nice glass door to cover all the electronics would be nice. Or even a simple door with a grille across the frame. BUT you need to make sure there is plenty of ventilation if doing this.

Lots of things to consider and usually best to work with the builder. IN saying that just do a little homework and then you will know what questions to ask.

Cat5 is an older cabling that it used for networking through out homes. Cat5e is better and has faster speeds and the newer Cat6 is even better. SO since this is a new install I would suggest using Cat 6. You would not notice the difference between the Cat5 vs Cat6 but always best to go with the better technology to prevent from having to upgrade down the road. If he only does Cat5 then dont sweat it. Maybe ask for Cat5e or Cat6 but not a specific need or anything.

Most of the time 16 gauge would be enough for speaker wiring in the walls. BUT I prefer to have 12-14 gauge myself. If having a short run then 16 is plenty but if needing to carry a lot of power and long way, 50ft, then I would go up one size at least. SO many questions that I am sure the installer could answer also. BEST to let him know what your thinking and see what kind of answers he says.
 

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As maybe an addendum to what chrapladm said, make sure to use real AWG rated wiring. Not only would wiring that only said "XX Gauge" on it as the gauge probably not really be equivalent to AWG, but it likely also would be of inferior quality.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Last barrage of questions ... probably! :)

I said I would do some research while travelling, and then I thought where else will I research this next level with someone I trust more than you??? Duh!

Until I get the exact Width dimensions of my cabinets, I cannot be completely sure there will be room for both a speaker AND a Sub. Is it always preferential to mount a speaker like the JTR triple8 or the Seaton AC-8 on the floor toed-up to listening level OR would 8-9’ high above the fireplace and tv unit, mounted on their SIDE, toed-down to listening level be equally acceptable? If both spots were equally available, which is preferred?? Note: I know that about 25” high is true preference, but that is NOT available. This band above the TV is where I will mount the center speaker. IF the floor cabinet becomes unworkable, is the high mount (on its side) acceptable??

Concerning the speakers themselves, since the Seaton comes with amps, I suppose that would save money by not having to buy an amp as compared to buying the JTR without amps. I cannot find a current Seaton website with pictures and dimensions, but in a thread, I saw that the Sparks are Seaton’s back speaker offerings and at 17”, I know they will not fit in my 12” spot. Would 3 of the Seaton AC-8’s in the front work well with 2 of Jeff’s Slanted 8’s in the back? NOTE: Is the reason you suggested that each channel in the amp have its own line out so that you could use the power in the amp to power, for example, the JTR’s and NOT the Seaton’s? OR, would it just be wiser to stick with ONE company. IF ONE, that would lean to JTR because of size of back speakers. But, I think I hear “between the lines” that you might personally prefer the newer Seaton speaker above the JTR for MUSIC if money is not the sole issue?? Yes, I also hear you say clearly that ANY of them will delight my ears compared to what I have been listening to! 

Maybe my final question concerning speakers and configuration: If choosing the JTR’s 5 speaker system, which sub do you recommend so I can finalize those measurements in my cabinet?
If choosing a combo of Seatons l/r/c and JTR slanted 8’s in back, which sub would you recommend?
If I could choose a 5 Seaton system, which sub would you prefer?
I thank you for the recommendation of the Blue Ray player. Sounds smart and I WILL do it without any further research. My wife will hardly believe that I will just accept your wisdom and buy something without lots of research. But I do appreciate all that has come from you! Thanks!
 

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It is hard to suggest which speaker unless I am listening to them in your room. I like the fact that BOTH JTR and Mark are available to chat with on forums. This makes chatting with them easy and getting questions answered. I like the Seatons better only because there is a powered version. BUT I would like to have either of them. When using the JTR's you only need to have about solid 200watts and you will be happy. I am a DIY guy who tries to get every ounce of performance out of my speakers even though I use about 10% most of the time.

You can mix and match all you want. I think going with which size works best would be the best option. So still with whom ever one you want and you cant go wrong. If money was no object I would say get the SH50's from Danley. Danley's SH speaker lineup is my favorite. After that comes the Seaton/JTR's. Now id I add in DIY then everything changes. BUT I will not confuse you.

I cant get on the JTR website as of now but I think he makes a HT sub called the Captivator. So which ever company you chose to go with they all make an awesome product and I would suggest just using all the speakers from the same company.

You can place a speaker anywhere you want. It does not have to be on a stand. There are many other variables involved with placement but there are a LOT of work arounds also. SO usually its a journey finding a speaker you want AND can afford. After that it then is a matter of setting up your speakers and then fine tuning everything with some sort of room eq software such as REW. Then add in some room treatments to make the room more "dead," and your set.

This is your money so which ever you prefer to spend just go from there. I am also very interested in what this builder is going to build to hold these speakers and/or subs.

If going with the JTR's you can also just get an external 3 channel amp from Emotiva to power the front channels. Will be considerable cheaper than going with the powered versions from Mark. Marks plate amps that he uses are very nice and powerful and that is why they are so expensive. BUT for about 700-1000, depending on what is out now, you could easily power all 3 channels.

Lastly is there any idea of the room sizes yet or dimensions of cabinet?

If you are able to use a sub in the corner and have plenty of room then one sub might be best for you. The sub will be corner loaded and have a lot more gain to it. Saying that you could go with a smaller sub. IF you are restricted to center of wall placement then hopefully you will have enough room to support a larger sub. Such as 20"wide x 20" tall. It would be best to have a pair of subs and even a pair of simple sealed 12's in the L/R corners of the room would work.

BUT so many variables and unknowns that it is still hard to suggest what will work best. I can only suggest amazing quality speakers that would work given what I think you have to work with. Last question for now, has the builder built an AV cabinet before?
 
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