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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I Am considering the purchase of a Marantz AV7702 processor which has Audyssey XT-32 and Dolby ATMOS. I like all the features of the AV7702 and ATMOS is fascinating, but my experience was so bad with Audyssey XT I am concerned that even the upgraded XT-32 might not work well for me. However, Dirac looks like a room EQ system with great promise. If I could somehow get a Dirac equipped Mini DSP to work with the AV7702, that is without degrading the basic sound of the unit, and maybe even working with ATMOS, I would be very pleased. Will any of the Dirac Mini DSP units with Dirac work with multichannel systems? I would greatly appreciate any advice any of you can offer.
 

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We have done some comparing of Audyssey XT and Dirac Live, and have found that the differences are not huge. I do not discourage you from trying Dirac Live, it is good, but it might be good to see just how the mic patterns you are using are affecting on your results.

I hate to encourage you to switch technologies and be unhappy with another also, because of the way you are using it. Take a look at our Audyssey User Guide, and see if different mic patterns help your results.

We hope in the future to have a direct comparison between Dirac Live and Audyssey XT32. It will be at least a few months.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
We have done some comparing of Audyssey XT and Dirac Live, and have found that the differences are not huge. I do not discourage you from trying Dirac Live, it is good, but it might be good to see just how the mic patterns you are using are affecting on your results.

I hate to encourage you to switch technologies and be unhappy with another also, because of the way you are using it. Take a look at our Audyssey User Guide, and see if different mic patterns help your results.

We hope in the future to have a direct comparison between Dirac Live and Audyssey XT32. It will be at least a few months.

I appreciate your considered response. My only experience is with XT. I have not used XT32. XT would not work with my Kreisel DXD12012 subwoofers. I tried multiple mic patterns, tweaked crossovers and levels for several months without success. I have read that XT32 is much better. Since I'm do not have XT32 or Dirac I must rely on advice from folks like you. Any comparisons you can draw or any comments about the set up process, strengths, weaknesses would help. Is Mini DSP with Dirac limited to a two channel system? Thanks
 

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XT and XT32 have separate control over subwoofer/LFE channel, XT32 has a LOT more filter taps for sub channel, so might do a better job of sub control for you, will work well with ATMOS.

nanoAVR DL is multichannel with subwoofer/LFE channel (8.0 or 7.1 configurable) also has separate control over subwoofer/LFE channel (in 7.1 config), Dirac Live processing for each channel (as with XT or XT32), is HDMI in and out, will work well with any multichannel AVR/system, including ATMOS.

A plus for the nanoAVR DL is the ability to save configurations, even have multiple configs in the unit to switch between, you can see individual measurement plots (medium resolution), retake an individual measurement if you don't like that mic position, save and re-load projects with measurements, very powerful. But you can do much/most of that with the Audyssey Pro Kit, too, so that is another possibility if you have a Pro-Kit-capable AVR.

In no way doubting your skill level, have you worked much with subwoofer position? Sonnie Parker had subwoofer issues he tried to resolve for years with XT32 and an additional EQ unit until Mark Seaton walked in and resolved it with sub re-positioning (there might have been some magic involved, too, it was pretty cool, read about it HERE). Just a question.

Perhaps the best way to approach it is consider two areas of greater control:
  • In-Depth processing visibility/control with XT-32 + Pro Kit or with nanoAVR DL. With sub problems (or any frustrating problem) the ability to see more is often more important than the ability to control more (more filter taps). Audyssey and Dirac Live are both powerful, I think better eyes on individual measurements and correction results is the main thing you could benefit from.
  • Subwoofer placement, which in all honesty is over my head, and over most people's heads, but believe me a few feet or a turn of the subwoofer or some little thing can make a world of difference. I can understand your frustration. Not suggesting you have not done the work here, just that NOT resolving it at the sub/room level and hoping a correction technology will just "handle it" might only be leading to further frustration. OTOH, it might be just the thing, might solve all your problems. It usually does not.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks again for your advice. I enjoy learning from folks on the forum. Fortunately, I have a good handle on subwoofer placement. Ken Kreisel took a lot of time helping me with placement when I bought his subwoofers. They are terrific now that Audyssey XT has been turned off. Basically XT just eliminated any really low bass. Nevertheless, I can tell from my REW measurements that things could be better. I know the response can be flatter and I know the integration of the subs at the crossover point could be improved. Maybe Audyssey XT32 can do it. I really hope so. Basically I hoped a Mini DSP unit could serve as backup if XT32 failed. What can I expect to pay for a Mini DSP multichannel capable system with Dirac?
 

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nanoAVR with Dirac Live is $549.

XT32's processing power might do what you need.

Sometimes users are simply not happy with the stock target curve. The Pro Kit lets you design your own. So will Dirac. Or use an additional unit of some kind to boost low bass after running correction. Or turn up LFE or sub level after running correction. That is enough for some, but it sounds like you are beyond anything that simple.

Do not know how Dirac & XT32 compare directly for processing power, number of filter taps, that is proprietary info. I believe Dirac's use of mixed mode filters might give it a theoretical boost in targeting LF problems, but it is still hard to compare directly.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
nanoAVR with Dirac Live is $549.

XT32's processing power might do what you need.

Sometimes users are simply not happy with the stock target curve. The Pro Kit lets you design your own. So will Dirac. Or use an additional unit of some kind to boost low bass after running correction. Or turn up LFE or sub level after running correction. That is enough for some, but it sounds like you are beyond anything that simple.

Do not know how Dirac & XT32 compare directly for processing power, number of filter taps, that is proprietary info. I believe Dirac's use of mixed mode filters might give it a theoretical boost in targeting LF problems, but it is still hard to compare directly.
Just to be sure I understand correctly. Is the Mini DSP limited to working with 7.1 channels or could it do the additional 4 channels required by ATMOS? Will the Mini DSP work with DSD or do all Room EQ systems just work with PCM?
 

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Just to be sure I understand correctly. Is the Mini DSP limited to working with 7.1 channels or could it do the additional 4 channels required by ATMOS? Will the Mini DSP work with DSD or do all Room EQ systems just work with PCM?
1. 7.1 only.
2. PCM only.
 

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Just to be sure I understand correctly. Is the Mini DSP limited to working with 7.1 channels or could it do the additional 4 channels required by ATMOS? Will the Mini DSP work with DSD or do all Room EQ systems just work with PCM?
ATMOS experts, correct me if I get this wrong...

ATMOS takes the incoming 8 channels of sound along with metadata telling where all those sounds come from in the movie space (an infinite number pseudo-sources), and re-maps that to your actual speaker setup, controlling the level of a sound coming potentially from several speakers to make it appear to come from a specific direction. As far as I understand it, the audio entering your AVR on channel 1 could end up being routed to a lot of different directions / speaker combinations. So speaker correction on the input stream will not be correct for an ATMOS movie.

XT32 will work with ATMOS because it will affect the speaker it is assigned to, not the input channel.

Be aware that an 11 channel AVR with XT32 might not have XT32 on all 11 channels. I saw one spec for an 11 channel AVR with 9 channels of XT32. You will have to dig into the specs of your model to figure that out.

PS: I see Kal answered the questions already, but I will post this anyway if it helps. Thanks, Kal. I love his economy of words.
 

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The DDRC-22A / -22D / -22DA all convert to 24bit/96kHz (216 kHz max input rate) with 32-bit internal processing depth.

The nanoAVR DL converts to 24bit/48kHz (216 kHz max input rate) 32-bit processing depth.

Can you hear the difference between 96 kHz and 48 kHz sample rates? Some people claim they can. it will be mighty subtle, if audible at all. Given the choice, all other factors being the same (they never are), I would go 96 kHz, but I would hate to have to explain my reasons.
 

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I appreciate your considered response. My only experience is with XT. I have not used XT32. XT would not work with my Kreisel DXD12012 subwoofers. I tried multiple mic patterns, tweaked crossovers and levels for several months without success. I have read that XT32 is much better. Since I'm do not have XT32 or Dirac I must rely on advice from folks like you. Any comparisons you can draw or any comments about the set up process, strengths, weaknesses would help. Is Mini DSP with Dirac limited to a two channel system? Thanks
I'm running XT32 on my Marantz 8801 with dual DXD12012's now and the bass is flat out incredible, I've never used xt and was using only one sub until recently and while I do indeed like the sound on the DXD's with no eq , with it the addition of XT32 really helps the and integration to the mains and the sound is seamless. I plan on trying to get REW and a mic so I can finally measure things.

Good luck! and let us know what you find .
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I'm running XT32 on my Marantz 8801 with dual DXD12012's now and the bass is flat out incredible, I've never used xt and was using only one sub until recently and while I do indeed like the sound on the DXD's with no eq , with it the addition of XT32 really helps the and integration to the mains and the sound is seamless. I plan on trying to get REW and a mic so I can finally measure things.

Good luck! and let us know what you find .

Great! a fellow DXD12012 Duo owner. Can you tell me about your room and the placement of your subs? Are you using them with the default green dot settings? How did you go about running Audyssey XT-32? Did you need to change the sub levels after you ran Audyssey. What mic placement did you use? Please tell me about your other speakers, and amplification too. This is really helpful.
 

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Great! a fellow DXD12012 Duo owner. Can you tell me about your room and the placement of your subs? Are you using them with the default green dot settings? How did you go about running Audyssey XT-32? Did you need to change the sub levels after you ran Audyssey. What mic placement did you use? Please tell me about your other speakers, and amplification too. This is really helpful.
My room is 20x21x8 with an opening to kitchen and hallway at the rear and a large fireplace in the left front corner. I have my Duo in the front right corner placed 2" from the sidewall and 5" from the rear wall. For my Audyssey run as some posted above I've found mic placement critical especially for position #1 as I feel getting the right distance from all speakers has a profound effect on the overall calibration after that I use pretty much the 8 position layout with the exception of the final two (7&8) which i've found that by placing the mic just behind the mlp to the right and left 2ft from the 1st position (equilateral triangle) has done wonders. I will note when calibrating the Duo I run the calibration in one position only to check the levels I set them at manually and try to get them at 78db combined as they should be measured as one unit! ( Use an spl meter or use the Audyssey sub level check) Its the only time I move the one of the green dots ( for gain) but as soon as the calibration is done the subs are all positioned back to the green dots, as I know with them on when running Audyssey they would top out at 85db and that would bottom out the sub level on the 8801 to its -12 setting (lowest) This is avoided by manually setting the gain and then flipping the switch afterwards to the greendots as Ken stresses the importance of a duo having the same gain setting. This should put the 8801 around -6 db for the ub level before flipping the back to the green dot ( Audyssey will have the subs down anywhere form -3 to -5 db) and now subtract 5db from the greendot setting of 85db and adjust the level of them in the 8801 to around (for me) to -10 to -8 db! I know it seems like a lot but its worth it and feel free to ask for any clarification :T

as for my gear it's as follows

Boston Acoustic E100's for mains along with a VR12 center channel and I use Energy Veritas VS surround speakers mounted directly to the sides of the mlp. I use an Oppo 105 and amps are an anthem MCA30 for RS/LS/C and a Parasound Halo A21 for my mains. The room is also treated with Ats acoustic panels and GIK as well!
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Audiofan1, Your method of running the Audyssey calibration with the sub levels adjusted to work with Audyssey and then returning the subs to the default level is ingenious. Non-DXD-12012 owners are probably confused by this exchange, but I understand and appreciate what you were able to accomplish. Now I need to decide whether to go with the Marantz AV7702 and Audyssey,so I can get ATMOS, or choose the Emotiva XMC-1 with Dirac. At least now, after your input, I know there is a reason to consider the AV7702.
 

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Audiofan1, Your method of running the Audyssey calibration with the sub levels adjusted to work with Audyssey and then returning the subs to the default level is ingenious. Non-DXD-12012 owners are probably confused by this exchange, but I understand and appreciate what you were able to accomplish. Now I need to decide whether to go with the Marantz AV7702 and Audyssey,so I can get ATMOS, or choose the Emotiva XMC-1 with Dirac. At least now, after your input, I know there is a reason to consider the AV7702.
The 7702 gets my vote! Atmos his a 500lb gorilla in the room for sure:D and now that it has XT32 its hard for me to resist but I shall hold out for the 8802 sometime in the future or perhaps wait for DTS to chime in ! Who knows :bigsmile:

I'll be watching for your post on what you decide, I Am after all curious about the XMC-1 as well!
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
The 7702 gets my vote! Atmos his a 500lb gorilla in the room for sure:D and now that it has XT32 its hard for me to resist but I shall hold out for the 8802 sometime in the future or perhaps wait for DTS to chime in ! Who knows :bigsmile:

I'll be watching for your post on what you decide, I Am after all curious about the XMC-1 as well!
The decision would be easier if I could find out the DACs and the volume control chip and typed used in the AV7702. I have tried for two weeks without success. I wonder how the AV8802 will differ.
 

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The decision would be easier if I could find out the DACs and the volume control chip and typed used in the AV7702. I have tried for two weeks without success. I wonder how the AV8802 will differ.
i know the difference between the 8801 and 7701 where 32 bit vs 24 for all channels. The volume control wasn't anything special form what I gleaned from "Secrets" having said that and one reason I'm holding on to my 8801 as long as I can is the fact its been a very transparent 2/ch pre for my Oppo 105 even after running the 105 direct to my A21 as far as the 8801's musical prowess ( toe tapping comes to mind) its quite stunning for multich sacd and movies. I set out two years ago to put together a setup for my 2/ch and multich habits and the gear I've listed have rewarded me beyond my expectations.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
i know the difference between the 8801 and 7701 where 32 bit vs 24 for all channels. The volume control wasn't anything special form what I gleaned from "Secrets" having said that and one reason I'm holding on to my 8801 as long as I can is the fact its been a very transparent 2/ch pre for my Oppo 105 even after running the 105 direct to my A21 as far as the 8801's musical prowess ( toe tapping comes to mind) its quite stunning for multich sacd and movies. I set out two years ago to put together a setup for my 2/ch and multich habits and the gear I've listed have rewarded me beyond my expectations.
Off topic, but do you like the Oppo 105 connected directly to an amp better than thru your AV8801?
 
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