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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I am looking for a new amp for my Piosound Eagle electrostats as the Onkyo A9070 integrated rated at 140watt at 4 ohm seems not so great match.

I am on tight budget right now and was wondering if a pro amp or diy hypex amp would match the electrostats.

Any suggestions?

Here are the specs:

Frequency Response (Hz) 45-22kHZ +/- 3dB
Sensitivity (dB) 86
Impedance Nominal (ohm) 4
Amplifier minimum (watt) 75
Amplifier recommended (watt) 100
Dimensions (cm) 177 x 36 x 3,5
Dimensions electronic housing (cm) 20 x 31 x 5
Weight (kg) 32
 

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Re: 2 Channel Picture Gallery

New living room speakers.

Piosound Eagle electrostats replacing the Klipsch RF-5 horns.
That's an interesting pair of speakers. I'd love to audition them. There are some definite advantages to a segmented ESL design and this one appears to maximize those ends. I love the materials Piosound chose for the framing. They look nice too. They suggest that the Eagles should be a more benign load than the typical ESL, with no ugly dips. They also recommend 100 watts, which the Onkyo exceeds with its 4ohm rating. On paper, at least, your present integrated amp ought to be fine.

For me, those speakers would have to be supplemented with a subwoofer (or two).

That's a very clean look - elegant.:) In what way is the Onkyo apparently insufficient? I don't mean to sound incredulous. I'm genuinely curious. What appears fine on paper doesn't always translate to the real world.;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
Re: 2 Channel Picture Gallery

Well, i first auditioned them at a friends place, who i actuallybthe dealer.
They were in a small space (bedroom like) connected to two Musical Fidelity monoblocks rated to 600watts and sounded tremendous with full bass.

Now they are in a large reverberant space and to my ears there is not muh beneath 60 - 70 hz.repositioning does not much help, so i was wondering if the Onkyo has problems to drive the electrostats beneath that range.

Now, i must admit that in my second music room (cinema) i am used to four stereo integrity sealed subs, with lots of pressure.
In the living room with the Pios there is no bass pressure, at my friends house i could definitly live with the Pios without a sub.
Beside the bass, they realy sound fine!

I really like the Onkyo, it paired nicce with the Klipsch speakers but they say to use low capacitive speakercables because the Onkyo does not like gigh capacitive loads and thats exactly what electrostats are. So in guess i am a little confused...

Or afterall its just room acoustics, the most important factor...
 

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Re: 2 Channel Picture Gallery

Well, i first auditioned them at a friends place, who i actuallybthe dealer.
They were in a small space (bedroom like) connected to two Musical Fidelity monoblocks rated to 600watts and sounded tremendous with full bass.

Now they are in a large reverberant space and to my ears there is not muh beneath 60 - 70 hz.repositioning does not much help, so i was wondering if the Onkyo has problems to drive the electrostats beneath that range.

Now, i must admit that in my second music room (cinema) i am used to four stereo integrity sealed subs, with lots of pressure.
In the living room with the Pios there is no bass pressure, at my friends house i could definitly live with the Pios without a sub.
Beside the bass, they realy sound fine!

I really like the Onkyo, it paired nicce with the Klipsch speakers but they say to use low capacitive speakercables because the Onkyo does not like gigh capacitive loads and thats exactly what electrostats are. So in guess i am a little confused...

Or afterall its just room acoustics, the most important factor...
Please don't worry, the problem IS the Onkyo stats need GOOD amplification and the Onkyo is a decent HT amplifier BUT not for demanding speakers like ELECTROSTATICS.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
Re: 2 Channel Picture Gallery

Please don't worry, the problem IS the Onkyo stats need GOOD amplification and the Onkyo is a decent HT amplifier BUT not for demanding speakers like ELECTROSTATICS.
Any recommandations regarding good amplification? I am on tight budget right know.
Its not what you are thinking about but I could pickup a used Carver M1t for 120€ and later on buy more decent stuff.
 

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Re: 2 Channel Picture Gallery

Any recommandations regarding good amplification? I am on tight budget right know.
Its not what you are thinking about but I could pickup a used Carver M1t for 120€ and later on buy more decent stuff.
Hi Mike, what is your budget NOW it will be easier to recommend good amplification, please don't forget that your speakers are of very good quality and are worth 8000 Euros there are many good amplification BUT nothing that is quality is cheap - Jeff Rowland - Conrad Johnson - Audio Research - Krell - McIntosh - Musical Fidelity - Mark Levinson - Classé Audio - Threshold - Plinius - Pass Labs - and many many more. Good Luck
 

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Moved discussion to its own thread, as it was getting off topic to the 2 channel picture gallery thread.

The Onkyo should be fine at lower volumes. The capacitance issue should not be an issue until you crank it up. If you are playing the speakers are higher levels occasionally, then more power may be the answer. I am using an Emotiva XPR-5 with my MartinLogan Montis, although they are more efficient than these. If your budget is tight, check out the Emotiva models. There is no reason to spend a lot of money to get good power.

You might also consider a speaker cable with low inductance, low capacitance and a little resistance... something using the Canare 4S11 cable is good. This is the cable I use. You can get those from RAM Electronics. See the speaker evaluation links in my sig for those cables.
 

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Moved discussion to its own thread, as it was getting off topic to the 2 channel picture gallery thread.

The Onkyo should be fine at lower volumes. The capacitance issue should not be an issue until you crank it up. If you are playing the speakers are higher levels occasionally, then more power may be the answer. I am using an Emotiva XPR-5 with my MartinLogan Montis, although they are more efficient than these. If your budget is tight, check out the Emotiva models. There is no reason to spend a lot of money to get good power.

You might also consider a speaker cable with low inductance, low capacitance and a little resistance... something using the Canare 4S11 cable is good. This is the cable I use. You can get those from RAM Electronics. See the speaker evaluation links in my sig for those cables.

Please read carefully about the power of Emotiva.

Greetings all, I'm back with my tail between my legs and an apology to Mr Acoustat. I was running Emotiva XPA-1's and couldn't get my Model 3's to sound good at all. They sounded thin and weak and I could not turn up the volume or the amps would go into protection mode and kick off. He (and others) pointed out, and rightly so, the Acoustats need much current to operate correctly and the Emotivas were too puny. I took offense to his remarks and went off. Well after much soul searching, studying and discussions with others, the Emotivas are gone. In their place is a Hafler DH-500 amp topped off with an Audible Illusions Modulus 3 preamp.
The resultant sound is astounding! All the volume I'd ever care to apply, but the sound, WOW! Airy crystalline highs, detailed midrange, deep authoritative bass, layer upon layer of detail, a holographic soundstage with each instrument not just in its place side to side, but 3 dimensionally. The best I'd heard before this was a set of KLH Model 9's and to my ears the Acoustats easily best them.
All I can say is thanks for the advice, even though it was hard to swallow, the end result is nothing short of amazing! LONG LIVE ACOUSTATS!!
 

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I too will voice caution when choosing an amp for electrostats. While your speakers are 4 ohm nominal, they will deep lower at higher frequencies. As the ohms go down the impedance goes up, making it difficult for some amps to drive the speakers.

I tried a Carver m1.5t with Martin Logan CLS and it would go into clipping at anything above soft listening levels. Then a Carver TFM-35 that was better but still couldn't handle the speakers. Next was a Carver A500X that was pretty good but still worked a little to hard for my taste. I tried a Carver A760x that was really good. It has plenty of power and could deliver the current needed. I replaced that with a pair of Carver Silver 7T mono blocs that drove the speakers easily, like a walk in the park.

I sold the CLS and got a pair of Martin Logan Prodigy electrostats. I drove those with a pair of Spread Sprectrum Technologies Ampzilla 2000 mono blocks that can drive speakers below one ohm. They are not cheap but are phenominal. I have since got a Jolida JD1000RC tube amp, with 100 watts per channel. It has no issue pushing the electrostats.

Take a look at the Behringer EP4000 pro amp. It can handle the low ohms and high impedance. It has gain controls so you can tailor it to your system. It does use a fan for cooling that I suggest changing. This one from Digikey works well and is quiet. http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/3110SB-05W-B20-E00/P14751-ND/2615564
 

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I am looking for a new amp for my Piosound Eagle electrostats as the Onkyo A9070 integrated rated at 140watt at 4 ohm seems not so great match..
Hi Mike,

I'm not surprised the Onkyo is stumbling. THE most critical parameter for "matching" or picking the right amp, is the impedance measurement
of the speaker, not the "specs".
As such, you may be in luck, as I found this: http://www.i-fidelity.net/testberichte/high-end/pio-sound-eagle/labor-seite-5-testbericht-pio-sound-eagle.html



2 ohm minimas on both ends means gutless amps need not apply.

I am on tight budget right now and was wondering if a pro amp or diy hypex amp would match the electrostats.
Yes, many pro amps (including inexpensive ones) would handle that with ease. Not sure about the Hypex, but possibly.
My suggestion (if they will ship to Belgium): http://classdaudio.com/audio-amplifiers/sds-400c-class-d-audio-stereo-power-amplifier.html
Yes, old Carvers, Adcoms, Haflers and Parasounds, etc. are also possibilities.

cheers
 

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Sorry Mike, as for ME i would NEVER recommend class D amplification of course this is only my choice but for me class D amps where made for subwoofers and that's where they belong of course there are a FEW exceptions but they are not cheap, in my book 500 watts amplifiers that weigh 18 pounds is very hard to comprehend i like my amps HOT and HEAVY i live in a condo now and i own a small integrated amplifier BUT it is a quality product driving 81db Acoustat 1+1s stats no problem what so ever.



 

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From what I can tell the Emotiva XPA-1 has a beefier power supply and capacitance than the Hafler, so not sure what the issue was with those running the Acoustats. I know a lot of people using Emotiva on stats and they are perfectly happy... and stat owners are usually pretty critical of their amps. Emotiva's newer XPR series are pretty serious and I have an XPR-5 driving my MartinLogans... drove my Prodigy's that dip down to 1 ohm, without any issues whatsoever.... AS DID the XPA-1 monoblocks I had running the Prodigy's. Never a minutes problem... both sound great with the ML's. Their XPR-1 monoblocks are getting on up there in price though... that power supply has a 2.5 kVA toroidal power transformer with 240,000 uF low ESR capacitor bank.

Roger Sanders of Sanders Sound System is one who is big on the proper amps to power electrostatic speakers. His Magtech is the bomb of high current amps, but they ain't cheap by any means. He wrote several white papers on amp power to drive stats. He actually recommended the Behringer EP2500 as a sufficiently good amp for his speakers provided you swap out the fan. I agree... the fans are loud and I have swapped out all the fans in my four EP2500's that I use on my subs. Actually I only use two of them right now. They are beefy amps.
 

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I was going to respond to this thread again yesterday, but I really wanted to see an impedance vs frequency plot - thanks for its inclusion in this thread (I also found that review to be interesting). My initial comment was based upon two things - the rated specs of the Onkyo and this:
http://www.audioworld.ch/index.cfm?action=act_getfile&doc_id=103403&lv=1

The plot tells a contrary story to the ad copy. Well, with a dip to 1.7 ohms at 10kHz, the ad copy is only fractionally true - it's not 1 ohm. On that basis, I would suggest a beefier amp with rather low output impedance (that rises very gently with frequency). The Carver mentioned is not likely an improvement. The amps Sonnie mentioned might do the trick on a budget. I know of a few people with good things to say about them, but they are using them with Maggies, which truly are a benign load.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 · (Edited)
Thanks to everyone for helping me out and the great information!

Well, i am on tight budget right now, just finished my new home theatre room:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...room-sloped-front-rear-wall-8.html#post634096

It is equiped with new speakers aswell, Klipsch Palladium front, center and surrounds and four diy Si 18 subs powered with Ep2500's.

I am planning to use an EP2500 this weekend between the electrostats, i know the Ep2500 will not blow me away with super high fidelity sound but perhaps this test will give me an idea regarding the power those Pio's need.

Still all info regarding good amplification is much appreciated, In the mean time i can save a little bit...

A good pro amp continues to intrigue me, if you look at the specs of these devices these days...
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Sorry Mike, as for ME i would NEVER recommend class D amplification of course this is only my choice but for me class D amps where made for subwoofers and that's where they belong of course there are a FEW exceptions but they are not cheap, in my book 500 watts amplifiers that weigh 18 pounds is very hard to comprehend i like my amps HOT and HEAVY i live in a condo now and i own a small integrated amplifier BUT it is a quality product driving 81db Acoustat 1+1s stats no problem what so ever.



Check out the new ncore class d amps from hypex: http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/ncore/1.html
2 mono block ncore [email protected] around 1800dollar diy
 

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Hi Mike,

I'm not surprised the Onkyo is stumbling. THE most critical parameter for "matching" or picking the right amp, is the impedance measurement
of the speaker, not the "specs".
As such, you may be in luck, as I found this: http://www.i-fidelity.net/testberichte/high-end/pio-sound-eagle/labor-seite-5-testbericht-pio-sound-eagle.html



2 ohm minimas on both ends means gutless amps need not apply.


Yes, many pro amps (including inexpensive ones) would handle that with ease. Not sure about the Hypex, but possibly.
My suggestion (if they will ship to Belgium): http://classdaudio.com/audio-amplifiers/sds-400c-class-d-audio-stereo-power-amplifier.html
Yes, old Carvers, Adcoms, Haflers and Parasounds, etc. are also possibilities.

cheers
Please be very careful with SPECS some of them can realy fool you, after reading all the specs on the Onkyo i would like you to read the specs on this Classé DR3-VHC 45 watts per channel pure class A amplifier and tell me wich one you would want.


 
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