Need confirmation and modeling help - noob DIY sub

2160 Views 12 Replies 8 Participants Last post by mayhem13, Feb 28, 2008

GSM

Discussion Starter · Feb 21, 2008

Ok, been a lurker around the boards for years. 5 years ago I was just about to pull the trigger on dual tempest (sbb4 design) but a few things came up (another kid, new house, etc....) I ended up getting a SVS pcplus 20-39. Love the thing and even upgraded the driver within the last 6 months. Old driver blew because I pretty much run it at it's limit and I have no control. The SVS is in the HT room in the basement.

Well, I've decided I need a sub for upstairs and I've decided to try the DIY approach.

Below are some of my constraints or as I like to call them, project challenges.

1. cheap ~ $250 or less on parts not including enclosure. This is a 'trial' for me to see if I like diy subs/speakers and/or the results. If everythings goes well, which i believe it will, I plan on making dual subs to replace the SVS. With a whole new set of constraints er uh i mean, project challenges, but waaaay more budget and size

2. 100% music only - country, teen pop, whatever else the wife and kids listen to. Since this is 100% music only I'm guessing I can tune this much higher then is normally done around here. 25hz? 30hz? I'm guessing 35hz is too high?

3. room is open to the entire house - 4500 sqft house sooo like i said the room is 'open'- that being the case I'm trying to squeeze the most performance out I can. I have no 'issues' doing a ported design. It'll just make more mdf dust.

4. limited floor space - i figure i can do a 16 inch sonosub - but in this case i think it'll be sacrete(sp?) because rule #1 (cheap) says I can get a 4 foot tube at Home Depot for around $10. That gives what? minus driver, port, double thick MDF on the end.... around 4 ft^3?

5. I'm pretty handy. I have all the tools but, will have to get a circle jig. So now I have an excuse to get a circle jig.

Now, i've been keeping an eye open for sales and found PE is having one now.

PE 300-804 240watt plate amp for $99 (no boost)
PE 295-464 Dayton 12" reference HF subwoofer for $119
PE 091-1245 Dayton BPA-38G HD Binding Post Pair Gold $6

throw in shipping at we're at my limit.

ok, now's here the part where I rapid fire the noob questions. stay with me please.

Any other hardware suggestions I should look at? maybe the PE 15" DVC? I could squeeze that into at 16" tube. I realize my budget is extremely limiting.

Although thinner then sonotube that sacrete tube still seems pretty tough. Has anyone used that before or tried and failed? I guess I could be that person it is only $10

If the consenses is the two above PE parts (on sale) I'll definatley need some modeling help. For some odd reason way back when I could use winisd and understand what it was telling me (at least I thought I understood) Now I can plug the numbers in but dont' see much difference when i compare different drivers. In any case I would appreciate it if someone could run the numbers to make sure group delay isn't bad or port velocity isn't too high or if I have enough power, what you think woudl be the best tuning, 25, 30,35? etc... in a nutshell, what would you do if you were me.

questions about the amp. does it have a built in subsonic filter? is it adjustable (changing resistors)? since this will be at a higher tune and ported I'm looking for some type of safe guard (no, i have no self control, I've already established that) Also, this is going on a receiver with no sub out so I'll have to use high level inputs. Is that going to cause any issues?

Oh, the speakers they'll be matched with are garbage. If the sub turns out good I plan on doing some speakers next.

Ok, I see I have rambled on way to much. I'm just trying to provide as much information as possible. Any suggestions are appreciated. I'll be posting this on several different boards so you only have to respond in your favorite.

thx
Geoff

ps. sorry, no cliff notes

mods, if I've broken any forum rules or mentioned something I shouldn't or offended anyone, it was not intentional. Seems like you can't swing a dead cat without breaking a rule or offending someone any more.

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bonehead848

· #2 · Feb 21, 2008

another sub you may want to consider is the db500. It was discontinued by tc sounds but is still available at the following retailer. It was a hailed for a while as the best cheap driver around.
http://www.torrentaudio.com/mistral12dvc-p-73.html
You are going to have a tough time filling that much space within your budget but as long as you keep your expectations realistic I think you will be very happy with the result.

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thxgoon

· #3 · Feb 22, 2008

GSM said:
1. cheap ~ $250 or less on parts not including enclosure. This is a 'trial' for me to see if I like diy subs/speakers and/or the results. If everythings goes well, which i believe it will, I plan on making dual subs to replace the SVS. With a whole new set of constraints er uh i mean, project challenges, but waaaay more budget and size

Why not just go for it now? Whether or not you decide you like DIY is going to be strongly contingent on the performance of the end result. IMHO - for $250 you may not be able to outperform your current SVS. But if you're just going to try and see if you like the process of DIY and don't have a budget for now than go for it! I would stuggest the 15" over the 12. Much more output at less excursion and lower distortion.

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GSM

Discussion Starter · #4 · Feb 22, 2008

bonehead848 said:
another sub you may want to consider is the db500. It was discontinued by tc sounds but is still available at the following retailer. It was a hailed for a while as the best cheap driver around.
http://www.torrentaudio.com/mistral12dvc-p-73.html
You are going to have a tough time filling that much space within your budget but as long as you keep your expectations realistic I think you will be very happy with the result.

I have realistic expectations and don't expect to fill that much space. This is more of a 'trial' for me before I sink 1500 in a dual sub set up in the HT room. Since the budget is so limiting I'll most likely get the PE equipment but I need help modeling, determining a tuning point, port size, expected output, etc...

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GSM

Discussion Starter · #5 · Feb 22, 2008

thxgoon said:
Why not just go for it now? Whether or not you decide you like DIY is going to be strongly contingent on the performance of the end result. IMHO - for $250 you may not be able to outperform your current SVS. But if you're just going to try and see if you like the process of DIY and don't have a budget for now than go for it! I would stuggest the 15" over the 12. Much more output at less excursion and lower distortion.

thx - I'm 95% sure I'll buy the PE equipment. This isn't to replace the SVS. I use that strictly for movies. This new sub will be strictly for music.

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BoomieMCT

· #6 · Feb 22, 2008

Some thoughts. . . .

Because this is for music only you do not need something that can plumb the depths of the audio spectrum. As long as you have good response to 30-40 Hz (compared to sub-20Hz for home theater) you should be doing pretty good. This works out to your advantage as each octave down you go requires a four fold increase in power. Considering you have limited space and 4500 square feet to fill you are going to need all the efficiency you can get.

To that end I'd look for the largest, most efficient driver you can and make sure it models well in an enclosure that will fit in your house. In this case I think a low Fs is not as important as efficiency. Given the size room you are driving I don't know if a single 12" Dayton HF or HO will cut the mustard (I can model this later at home to verify). You may want to browse some quality Hi-Fi woofers and pro-sound drivers and see how they model.

Your choice of amp is appropriate for your price range. MCM had a 300 watt amp on sale for $90 a while ago - it may still be on sale.

As far as enclosure you'll probably want something ported just to increase the efficiency a bit. Sonotube should be fine. I've never had the courage to try the thinner concrete tubes but maybe someone can talk to whether that works or not.

If you can fit it one thing to consider would be to make a Decware "Wicked One" using either of the amps above and two Eminence BP-102's in parallel. This would be a *very* efficient sub to use for music and people tend to really like how they sound.

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mayhem13

· #7 · Feb 22, 2008

The driver you mentioned needs a fairly big box ported. I would suggest the HO version for ported. It's fs is higher and should do nicely in about 1.5-2cuft with 2 4" ports. It can take a lot of power and has exceptionally low distortion-should do nicely in a music system. If you go with the HF version, go sealed at about 1.5 cu ft ( ideal qtc volume) I agree in regards to the mcm amp-either driver will benefit from the extra power. Also their are some surplus NHT 10" subs available for $20.00 each plus shipping and they model very well in a multi unit system (2-3 drivers per box) and have the same or better output than single 15 systems( i just order 4 myself for 2 end tables)

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bumpnzx3

· #8 · Feb 27, 2008

I bought a few of the TC Sounds DB500's when they were closing them out. I used one for myself, one in a car audio install I did for a friend, and I still have one that I did not use. I believe I also still have the original box that it was sent to me in also. It was mounted in an enclosure that I built for it- but never used. My girlfriend wanted me to add a substage to her car- then she sold it before I got a chance to install it. Her new car has the "upgraded" sound, which is horrible in my opinion, but has apparently satisfied her need for a substage. My Mercedes sounds system is recently completed, and as I said- I used one of the DB500's in my daily driver- so I dont really need to keep this one.

Anyway- I'll sell it for $85 shipped. You are welcome to check my username here on ebay.com, elitecaraudio.com or diymobileaudio.com for references since I haven't posted much on here. I have been into car audio for years and have posted on those sites pretty regularly.

-Josh

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Ricci

· #9 · Feb 27, 2008

If you can go with a slightly bigger box, you could get a Mach5 Audio MJ18 for about the same price as the other drivers you are mentioning and port it to somewhere around 25-30hz. This would extract a lot more output out of the limited wattage. Pro drivers would be great for this application but it's tough to get a decent one with the required budget.

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jwh7399

· #10 · Feb 28, 2008

Hey Josh(Bumpnzx3),

If GSM doesn't purchase your extra DB500, I'de be very happy to! I've been looking at the Mistral 12 for $89 + shipping and would love to save a few bucks. Please send me an e-mail if GSM doesn't buy it. [email protected]

Thanks,
Jon

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bumpnzx3

· #11 · Feb 28, 2008

GSM/Geoff- Are you interested? If not- I am going to sell it to Jon. Just trying to check in with you- I don't want to sell it out from under ya.

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GSM

Discussion Starter · #12 · Feb 28, 2008

Thanks everyone for all the suggestions. I pretty much figured at this price point my choices were limited and the differences would be nominal. I've already purchased the below:
PE 300-804 240watt plate amp for $99 (no boost)
PE 295-464 Dayton 12" reference HF subwoofer for $119
PE 091-1245 Dayton BPA-38G HD Binding Post Pair Gold $6
Just waiting for them to show up. Josh thanks for the offer. You know what they say, money talks, ** walks.

BoomieMCT, I do realize this is a stretch for my application and most likely won't 'cut the mustard'. I'm hoping that since the wife and kids (small kids) will be using this at low to moderate volumes it will be enough. If not I can use it in my office (10x12 room, music only) and make another one for them. My real objective was to get my feet wet without spending a ton of dough. Oh, i really liked your Budget "Stubby" Sonosub

For now I'm busy playing with winisd pro and totally confusing myself in the process. Soon I'll be back in this thread asking more noob questions.I may even try that thin concrete tube at Home Depot, after all, if it doesn't work out i'm only out $15.

-Geoff

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mayhem13

· #13 · Feb 28, 2008

At 40" tall-16" sonotube with a single 6" port 36.5" long tuned to 21hz looks pretty good with your driver. The amp will max out before the system does though so don't expect reference levels-should be nice and clean sounding-good luck with your project either way.

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