Home Theater Forum and Systems banner

21 - 40 of 70 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
334 Posts
Discussion Starter #21
One in each cabinet ported, both powered by the iNuke.
Link to the WinISD for the 15" D4? Cant find it here.

Wanting to take a look at it modeled out in a box so I can figure out size and ports, etc...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
The best value will be the SI HT15D4, they are available. They can be wired together for a 4 ohm load. They model the same as the 460HO in a 24" slot ported cube and are cheaper. Power would be a iNuke 3000DSP with a fan modification.
I second Mike's vote for the SI HT15D4 as well. I just now spent some time modeling them. My conclusion: They look to be very capable for your needs and are also a great value at $165 each (includes $20 S/H).

Assuming 2 drivers, 5 ft3 per driver, 20 Hz tune, normalized to Xmax or Pe power limit, applicable HPF to control excursion below tune

Infinitys at 600 W: F3 at 22 Hz, 112 db at 20 Hz, 116 dB at 40 Hz.

SIs at 1200 W: F3 at 23 Hz, 116 dB at 20 Hz, 121 dB at 40 Hz.

The decision: $200 more for the drivers ($330 vs $130) plus 600 more watts to yield 4 to 5 more dB across the passband.

Is it worth it . . . that's for you to decide???
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
334 Posts
Discussion Starter #23
I second Mike's vote for the SI HT15D4 as well. I just now spent some time modeling them. My conclusion: They look to be very capable for your needs and are also a great value at $165 each (includes $20 S/H).

Assuming 2 drivers, 5 ft3 per driver, 20 Hz tune, normalized to Xmax or Pe power limit, applicable HPF to control excursion below tune

Infinitys at 600 W: F3 at 22 Hz, 112 db at 20 Hz, 116 dB at 40 Hz.

SIs at 1200 W: F3 at 23 Hz, 116 dB at 20 Hz, 121 dB at 40 Hz.

The decision: $200 more for the drivers ($330 vs $130) plus 600 more watts to yield 4 to 5 more dB across the passband.

Is it worth it . . . that's for you to decide???
Yeah... I like their looks.

I need to get their WinISD file and then hammer down the full spec's of a Martycube. I think a downfiring MartyCube (or smaller version) like this is the way to go. Although the sub in the pic is the 18" driver so the 12 will use a smaller cut-out and may be able to size down the box.

I looked at the SI 15 D4 and its 55 to ship 2 them to me so total for 2 is 325.

I think this may be the way to go, for the price is the best bang for the buck. On top of it if I can get the size down on them, the possibility for 4 exists as Stereo Integrity is buying more of those woofers to keep them stocked.

I am 95% of the way to paying for both and just snagging them now to have them shipped to me and then work on the amp later on.

The next question is:

iNuke + MiniDSP + UMIK MIC + REW (autocalibrate)

OR

iNuke w DSP + REW (manual entry)

I get a discount through work on the iNukes.

Then its a iNuke 3000 or iNuke 6000 (either with 2 outputs or 4)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
334 Posts
Discussion Starter #25
Just a heads up, the smaller you make the cabinet the less low end output you will have.
So would you just basically use the MartyCube concept to build out and just use the 15" driver rather than the 18"?

Here is more info on the MartyCube from AVS (quote below link to AVSForum)

chalugadp said:
chalugadp said:
and downloaded 15,20,30,40,50,60,70,80,90 hz tones. Then I set the sound level and played them through the full marty (24 by 24 by 48"). Then swapped out driver and played them through martycube at same volume, same everything else settings, in the exact same sub placement in the room
[/URL]
Here is what I would setup mine as (quote linked to post w/ pics)

basshead81 said:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
I am 95% of the way to paying for both and just snagging them now to have them shipped to me and then work on the amp later on.

The next question is:

iNuke + MiniDSP + UMIK MIC + REW (autocalibrate)

OR

iNuke w DSP + REW (manual entry)

I get a discount through work on the iNukes.

Then its a iNuke 3000 or iNuke 6000 (either with 2 outputs or 4)
Sounds like a plan. You will still need a mic for option 2 (no miniDSP), but as I posted, there's data out there showing the stock Audysssey mic does a fairly good job with REW.

Also, the 3000 and 6000 are both 2 channel amps. One 3000 will power 2 of these subs with power to spare. Add another 3000, if you ever decide to build 2 more matching subs.

My guess is that 2 subs will be plenty by the time you add in some room gain. Room gain is hard to predict. In theory, it should very proportionally with room size/dimensions, but that's not always the case. In fact, AVS member Bossobass has found it generally does not and has collected some good data on what to expect:

Room Gain.png
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
334 Posts
Discussion Starter #27
Sounds like a plan. You will still need a mic for option 2 (no miniDSP), but as I posted, there's data out there showing the stock Audysssey mic does a fairly good job with REW.

Also, the 3000 and 6000 are both 2 channel amps. One 3000 will power 2 of these subs with power to spare. Add another 3000, if you ever decide to build 2 more matching subs.

My guess is that 2 subs will be plenty by the time you add in some room gain. Room gain is hard to predict. In theory, it should very proportionally with room size/dimensions, but that's not always the case. In fact, AVS member Bossobass has found it generally does not and has collected some good data on what to expect
Yeah, I agree... that and TBH once I put 2 of these monsters in the house, getting 2 more just wont happen lol.....

But my main point is even bass over a large area. The eD just cant handle 3000+ cubic feet. These 2 15's should provide adequate bass and help fix and room nulls.

I am looking HARD at the 3000 sans DSP then miniDSP. My Audyssey MIC may be good, but I am not really good at figuring out REW and the USB MIC simply makes it super easy, and then add in the fact I can port it over to the MiniDSP and have it do the work for me, and I am even more happy...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
Yeah, I agree... that and TBH once I put 2 of these monsters in the house, getting 2 more just wont happen lol.....

But my main point is even bass over a large area. The eD just cant handle 3000+ cubic feet. These 2 15's should provide adequate bass and help fix and room nulls.

I am looking HARD at the 3000 sans DSP then miniDSP. My Audyssey MIC may be good, but I am not really good at figuring out REW and the USB MIC simply makes it super easy, and then add in the fact I can port it over to the MiniDSP and have it do the work for me, and I am even more happy...

Re: Design. You may want to look into woofer sag to see if the SI is suitable for down-firing. Opinions vary as to whether sag really matters in the big picture.
http://www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/esantane/movies/DriverOrientation.pdf
https://www.parts-express.com/resources-woofer-mount-up-down

Re: Output. Bosso's chart covers a variety of room sizes, 1000ft - 6000 ft3; nevertheless, you can see room gain generally seems to start around 40 Hz and conservatively rises about 6 or 7 dB per octave from there. So add 6 or 7 dB to your simulations at 20 Hz to get an idea of what to expect for room gain.

Re: REW. I have the miniDSP with the Audyssey mic and it works good, but there was a learning curve. If easier is a priority, then definitely go the miniDSP + UMIK-1 route. Be sure to get the balanced version of the miniDSP; it has the higher output V usually required to fully drive pro audio gear.
http://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/minidsp-balanced-2x4
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
334 Posts
Discussion Starter #30
So would you just basically use the MartyCube concept to build out and just use the 15" driver rather than the 18"?

Yes, the SI 15 is less money that the 460HO and has the same output. I can't access the downfiring link, as long as it's 5 cu.ft. net volume it'll do well.
Yes, thats the goal.

The downfiring one just took the MartyCube and flipped it so the driver and ports are downfiring. The box has a 4" gap from the floor to the bottom of the box. I have checked with the guy and their are no issues with the sub walking or whatnot....

Will the SI have issues (sag, etc) being downfiring?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
334 Posts
Discussion Starter #32 (Edited)
FYI: I'm only seeing a little over 3% sag for the SI, so either way it's a moot point and is OK for down-firing.
Rock on. I think I will pull the trigger on the 15's later this week. Have them shipped to work for now and wait till I have everything ready to roll before making any moves....

Trying to sell off some of my other gear (turntable, car amp) that will more than fund the remainder of the build. Then sell my existing sub and cables and I will be good.

Probably have a one off set of speakon sub cables made by a buddy of mine to fit the iNukes and then the sub perfectly.

Can somebody link me to the SI 15" D4 winisd file?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
I am using T/S found at http://stereointegrity.com/index.php?id=60

Pe is not listed, but is given as 600 W on same page.

Says D2, but likely models very close to D4.

Input order as per WinISD help file; be sure to let it autocalc as you add.

The suggested procedure for entering driver parameters is following (check first that "Auto calculate unknowns" option is checked):

1. Enter Mms and Cms

This gives fs. If either is not available, then enter fs and other parameter.

2. Enter Sd, Bl and Re

Now, you should get all but Qms (and Qts), Vas. Please note that Vas may not match exactly what is specified by manufacturer, because exact value of Vas depends on environmental parameters. See FAQ.

3. Enter Rms or Qms.

Either one will do, although I tend to prefer Qms over Rms, because it can usually be measured in driver measurement procedures.

4. Enter Hc, Hg and Pe.

If Hc or Hg or either is available, then enter Xmax and optionally either Hc or Hg if available.

5. Enter number of voicecoils.

This procedure is most accurate. Also note that it also calculates true SPL (1W/1m) value. So it might not match the marketing SPL value, which is generally somewhat vague. Not in all cases, though.

6. Correct Znom, if necessary.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
334 Posts
Discussion Starter #34
I am using T/S found at http://stereointegrity.com/index.php?id=60

Pe is not listed, but is given as 600 W on same page.

Says D2, but likely models very close to D4.

Input order as per WinISD help file; be sure to let it autocalc as you add.

The suggested procedure for entering driver parameters is following (check first that "Auto calculate unknowns" option is checked):

1. Enter Mms and Cms

This gives fs. If either is not available, then enter fs and other parameter.

2. Enter Sd, Bl and Re

Now, you should get all but Qms (and Qts), Vas. Please note that Vas may not match exactly what is specified by manufacturer, because exact value of Vas depends on environmental parameters. See FAQ.

3. Enter Rms or Qms.

Either one will do, although I tend to prefer Qms over Rms, because it can usually be measured in driver measurement procedures.

4. Enter Hc, Hg and Pe.

If Hc or Hg or either is available, then enter Xmax and optionally either Hc or Hg if available.

5. Enter number of voicecoils.

This procedure is most accurate. Also note that it also calculates true SPL (1W/1m) value. So it might not match the marketing SPL value, which is generally somewhat vague. Not in all cases, though.

6. Correct Znom, if necessary.
Gotcha. There is a D2 file on the forum. I will grab that and use it tomorrow.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
334 Posts
Discussion Starter #35
Re: Output. Bosso's chart covers a variety of room sizes, 1000ft - 6000 ft3; nevertheless, you can see room gain generally seems to start around 40 Hz and conservatively rises about 6 or 7 dB per octave from there. So add 6 or 7 dB to your simulations at 20 Hz to get an idea of what to expect for room gain.
Good to know. Like I said I am wanting to hit the sub 20hz range with enough output to feel it. Given what the graphs for the 15" look like w/o room gain I am fairly sure duals will provide me: A) even bass response throughout the room & B) More than enough SPL

Re: REW. I have the miniDSP with the Audyssey mic and it works good, but there was a learning curve. If easier is a priority, then definitely go the miniDSP + UMIK-1 route. Be sure to get the balanced version of the miniDSP; it has the higher output V usually required to fully drive pro audio gear.
http://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/minidsp-balanced-2x4
So I am now seeing that the MiniDSP doesnt have the balance connectors but that you need to make your own. I am a "bit" hesitant to do that so wondering if the REW iNuke + UMIK-1 MIC would work.

Also wondering if I can just get by with the non balanced model for the iNuke 3000. How would I be able to tell?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
So I am now seeing that the MiniDSP doesnt have the balance connectors but that you need to make your own. I am a "bit" hesitant to do that so wondering if the REW iNuke + UMIK-1 MIC would work.

Also wondering if I can just get by with the non balanced model for the iNuke 3000. How would I be able to tell?
Do you mean REW, iNuke DSP, and UMIK-1? Yes, that would work, but you would need to manually EQ.

However, no need to make your own cables from scratch with the balanced miniDSP, if you are not comfortable. Just buy some RCA to XLR cables like these:
http://www.amazon.com/Hosa-Cable-XRM105-RCA-Male/dp/B000068NZK

Chop off the RCA ends and strip the conductors. Insert them into the unbalanced output connector blocks, like so:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/electronic-processing-equalization-devices/68605-mini-dsp-help.html

Input side can be done the same way using, a RCA to RCA cable from your LFE output of your AVR.

Be sure you have a 12V, min 300 mA DC power supply to power it. If it has a plug already, cut it off, strip the conductors as per above, and insert. Make sure you note the correct polarity.

You will also need to buy a plug in. This one will work for what you are needing to do:
http://www.minidsp.com/products/plugins/minidsp-2x4-kit-box-platforms/2-way-advanced-21-detail
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
334 Posts
Discussion Starter #37
Do you mean REW, iNuke DSP, and UMIK-1? Yes, that would work, but you would need to manually EQ.
Yup, I have these instructions on how to do that as well. Then I wouldn't need the miniDSP at all (or at least to start with), saving me about 115 bucks (not including cables). I am guessing the MiniDSP is MUCH better than the DSP software in the iNuke but am not 100% sure. Likely would end up needing it later on, but could get the MIC to start with.

HOWEVER......

However, no need to make your own cables from scratch with the balanced miniDSP, if you are not comfortable. Just buy some RCA to XLR cables like these:
http://www.amazon.com/Hosa-Cable-XRM105-RCA-Male/dp/B000068NZK

Chop off the RCA ends and strip the conductors. Insert them into the unbalanced output connector blocks, like so:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/electronic-processing-equalization-devices/68605-mini-dsp-help.html

Input side can be done the same way using, a RCA to RCA cable from your LFE output of your AVR.

Be sure you have a 12V, min 300 mA DC power supply to power it. If it has a plug already, cut it off, strip the conductors as per above, and insert. Make sure you note the correct polarity.

You will also need to buy a plug in. This one will work for what you are needing to do:
http://www.minidsp.com/products/plugins/minidsp-2x4-kit-box-platforms/2-way-advanced-21-detail
I can strip pre-existing cables just fine. I would need to initially add a 2 prong adapter for my LFE as I only have a .1 AVR not a .2.

This may make it a decentish option. I just wish they offered a model that was "truly" plug and play but IIRC its because lots of the XLR cables use different pin configurations they couldnt account for.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
334 Posts
Discussion Starter #38
I guess the question is how good is the iNuke DSP v the MiniDSP?

I save ~50 bucks between the 2 iNukes, but once you factor in the cost of the unit & cables its ~75 bucks or more than just the iNuke w DSP.

Either way I will probably just factor in the Mic. I have been wanting to mess with REW for a long time to help me position my mains.

Also if I use the miniDSP I wont be using it to crossover with my mains. I will let Audyssey do its thing there, so I just need to set the HPF, LPF and have it fix any weird issues between those frequencies.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
I can strip pre-existing cables just fine. I would need to initially add a 2 prong adapter for my LFE as I only have a .1 AVR not a .2.
No to the adapter to split your single LFE output; it is not necessary. The single LFE output from the AVR is fed to a single miniDSP input. That single input is then duplicated internally using the miniDSP plug-in to two mono outputs. Those two mono outputs are then manipulated/EQ'd the using the plug-in. Those two miniDSP outputs then serve as the inputs for the amp's L & R channels to drive each sub individually.

FYI: Most AVRs do not have two unique LFE (.2) outputs. Higher-end AVRs sometimes do, but they likely already have Audyssey SubEQ functionality (independent EQ of two subs), so there is less to be gained by using a miniDSP in the first place.
 
21 - 40 of 70 Posts
Top