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I'd like to add here that while some may think it would be beneficial to list a bunch of neutral grays and where they lie in relation to the Munsell system. It's much easier to just browse over to EasyRGB.com and punch in the numbers for the neutral you're looking for.

[PIE]N8 = 202 202 202
N9 = 229 229 229
N8.5 = 215 215 215
and so forth...[/PIE]

Then you would select the paint manufacturer you prefer and select match. It's really that simple! Some manufacturers may not have matches for what you're looking for, but if you have a Lowes nearby nothing matters anyways as they can match just about anything into a Valspar base.









mech
 

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Thanks for all of the info! I noticed one interesting thing with EasyRGB: True Value's Winter Mist doesn't get listed if I use 210 210 210. Strange!
 

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Thanks for all of the info! I noticed one interesting thing with EasyRGB: True Value's Winter Mist doesn't get listed if I use 210 210 210. Strange!
Yeah, it depends on the algorithm they use.

Winter Mist is 220,220,220.

It looks like EasyRGB uses the total deviation from each color component and also gives some weight to the balance between the 3 when choosing the closest match.

So, when you put in 210,210,210...the total deviation from Winter Mist is 30 (R,G, and B are off 10 points each).

The top 3 matches have a total difference of 9 points, 20 points, and 13 points. Note that the 2nd match is 20 pts off, but more "balanced" than the 3rd match that's only 13 points off.

The "worst match" it returns is Winter Mountain at 200,201,201...total deviation of 28.

Anyway, I don't know exactly what criteria they're using...but it clearly includes both color (thr balance between the R,G, and B components) as well as the shade (luminance level).

Bill may know the specifics of how they compute the top 3 color matches...I know he's been in contact with the EasyRGB creator.
 

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I came across a site called myperfectcolor.com that sells sample sized cans (and quarts and gallons) of paints that supposedly are "perfect matches" for a wide variety of paints.

After some searching, I was also able to locate neutral grey Munsell paints. For anyone interested, below is a table showing the paint numbers for N6 through N9.5:



This is not useful for ordering enough paint for a screen (too much $$$), but the samples and/or color names listed above could be helpful for color matching at local stores.
 

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Re: Narrowing the Playing Field

A while back I had a thread going elsewhere about screen color matching with a very interesting discussion about colors. Here is a chart gives a nice visual representation of what the colors look like and how they compare to each other and also has the RGB values.


I took the RGB values and plotted them on a graph. I like the graph in addition to the swatch chart because I can see the order from light to dark, plus when graphed you can see the color curve better. We always look for a neutral color, but it is interesting to see a lot of commercial screens are slightly green deficient.


What I did next was look at the local paint stores that were close to me. There are a couple of Lowes and Home Depots, but unfortunately Behr, Glidden, or Valspar are not included in the database so I didn't have any matches for what Lowes or Home Depot sells. There is a True Value right in my home town, and over in Bennington VT (a short 9 miles away!) there is a Sherwin Williams store.

So I narrowed things for a nice Munsell N8 match to either Winter Mountain from True Value with an RGB value of 200 201 201, or Sherwin Williams Gray Screen which comes it at 199 203 203.

I ended up going with Gray Screen SW7071 for my first test. The reason why is it comes in a very durable matte finish, and Winter Mountain only comes in the flat finish. Flat paints are okay, but they are not very easy to clean, and flat paint can get dirty or smudge very easily. Also matte is the same surface that commercial screens have, so I was intrigued with Sherwin Williams.

When I walked through the door, there was a display for the Duration brand in the matte finish. One panel was painted with a flat white, the other with the Duration matte white. There were markers there and the display encouraged you to draw on both panels... which I did :) Then I took the spray bottle and sprayed water on each panel... the marker drawing on the Duration matte finish actual started to come off just by being hit with the water. A quick whip with a paper towel they had there and it came completely off while the flat paint panel remained marked up. I was sold! Anyone that knows me and the extensive torture testing I did with the laminates knows I like a tough and durable screen, and for a painted screen this is pretty durable stuff.

I searched with no luck...but which of your BW formualtions is closes to Firehawk from Stewart? I am attempting to locate a manual stewart firehawk for a reasonable price but not easy....It seems to me that stewart is doing something similar to bw with "flakes' as you can see reflective particles through out the surface but not sheen or beads?
 

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Discussion Starter #128
Re: Narrowing the Playing Field

I searched with no luck...but which of your BW formualtions is closes to Firehawk from Stewart? I am attempting to locate a manual stewart firehawk for a reasonable price but not easy....It seems to me that stewart is doing something similar to bw with "flakes' as you can see reflective particles through out the surface but not sheen or beads?
I need to go back and edit that section of this thread. It's not that the information is wrong, it's just at the time the person that did the readings referenced C instead of D65. They are close, but will give different readings. Thanks for bringing this back up, it jogged my memory to get the updates to this thread done!

Right now there is only one 'formulation' of BW, that is the AAA-F with Bermudia Beige. The Henry version was dropped because Henry, like Black Jack isn't readily available to everyone, and it's expensive to buy online (Shipping). Also over the long haul, the Henry version ended up yellowing slightly, something we did not see because it takes awhile for it to happen. So we dropped it as a recommended method.

The FireHawk from the chart, when converted to D65 it comes out to 146 150 152 with a temp of 6855K.

Keep in mind this the G2, and that is no longer made. Mech has some samples coming of the new FireHawk so we will be getting some new readings soon as well as gain readings. The G2 was down around an N6 gray though.
 

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Re: Narrowing the Playing Field

I need to go back and edit that section of this thread. It's not that the information is wrong, it's just at the time the person that did the readings referenced C instead of D65. They are close, but will give different readings. Thanks for bringing this back up, it jogged my memory to get the updates to this thread done!

Right now there is only one 'formulation' of BW, that is the AAA-F with Bermudia Beige. The Henry version was dropped because Henry, like Black Jack isn't readily available to everyone, and it's expensive to buy online (Shipping). Also over the long haul, the Henry version ended up yellowing slightly, something we did not see because it takes awhile for it to happen. So we dropped it as a recommended method.

The FireHawk from the chart, when converted to D65 it comes out to 146 150 152 with a temp of 6855K.

Keep in mind this the G2, and that is no longer made. Mech has some samples coming of the new FireHawk so we will be getting some new readings soon as well as gain readings. The G2 was down around an N6 gray though.

Yes the firehawk does seem quite dark....have you put it under a microscope to see what's going on?

If you get the new formulation and best guess as to what's in it I would be happy to be a tester.
 

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Re: Narrowing the Playing Field

Yes the firehawk does seem quite dark....have you put it under a microscope to see what's going on?

If you get the new formulation and best guess as to what's in it I would be happy to be a tester.
Screen manufacturers do things quite differently than diy paint. Some consist of multiple optic layers stacked upon each other (DNP -Supernova) and some consist of glass beads 9 microns in diameter embedded into a white vinyl field and covered by a thin elastic top layer (High Power). Even if we knew what it was that made some of these materials tick, the odds of reproducing it in a garage are slim.

I have to admit that I've done very little research on the Firehawks. But I do have samples coming for review. If it's like some of the other manufactured materials, it's not something we could recreate. Also, how do you think Stewart would react if I asked for samples for review and then we proceeded to attempt to build a diy version of it? I'm certain they wouldn't be pleased. :foottap: We (the moderators of this screen forum) have agreed to not compare any manufactured material to diy material. It would be a disservice to the manufacturers.

If you're looking for a diy paint I'd recommend either Black Widow or Cream and Sugar. If you want something in between than you may want to sign up to be a beta tester of the new N8 diy paint mix coming out soon.
 

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Re: Narrowing the Playing Field

Screen manufacturers do things quite differently than diy paint. Some consist of multiple optic layers stacked upon each other (DNP -Supernova) and some consist of glass beads 9 microns in diameter embedded into a white vinyl field and covered by a thin elastic top layer (High Power). Even if we knew what it was that made some of these materials tick, the odds of reproducing it in a garage are slim.

I have to admit that I've done very little research on the Firehawks. But I do have samples coming for review. If it's like some of the other manufactured materials, it's not something we could recreate. Also, how do you think Stewart would react if I asked for samples for review and then we proceeded to attempt to build a diy version of it? I'm certain they wouldn't be pleased. :foottap: We (the moderators of this screen forum) have agreed to not compare any manufactured material to diy material. It would be a disservice to the manufacturers.

If you're looking for a diy paint I'd recommend either Black Widow or Cream and Sugar. If you want something in between than you may want to sign up to be a beta tester of the new N8 diy paint mix coming out soon.
I assume just looking at a sample would not give away all it's secretes as then any one could make any of these screens (including other suppliers). On that thought I just spoke with a fella who said vultec, dalite, and others get many of the fabrics from the same supplier (never heard this before but would not shock me if that were true).I just figured if firehawk was the standard (as noted on many home theater sites)the colour of grey they use might be a good place to start in "painting a screen". I believe stewart sprays screens and builds up layers....when looking at the surface you can also see "flakes" every so often so it seems to me they are going more the reflective particle (as in aluminum or some other medium) as opposed to beads or shean.

Stewart is sending me samples as well...they were easy to get I should have them by friday. Hopefully the samples won't be of the 2"x4" variety that elite sent me (I had to tape 6 togeather to get any type of viewable size). Dalite sent 12"x12" which were more usable as guess as to what the screen would look like.

I may be back to trying the BW sprayed on an dalite HC pull down as a tester (I have the screen and it is no longer the correct set up for my current room/projector). I would love to see how it compares to the other samples I have gotten.
 

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Discussion Starter #132
As far as a good place to start for painting a screen, if a person is looking for a gray screen, this thread is probably the perfect place to start. A neutral screen will always provide the best palate and provide the most accurate color reproduction.

Unless things changed, the G2 wasn't very neutral, and the darker the screen is, the harder it will push colors if it isn't a well balanced screen. One thing to keep in mind about installers is profit margin. So it doesn't necessarily mean just because one thing is used that it's the best- could just be that it yields the highest profit margin.

The bigger thing though is evaluating what type of screen would work best for you. Many people jump on one type of screen without truly evaluating their complete room setting as well as the projector.
 

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Re: Narrowing the Playing Field

I assume just looking at a sample would not give away all it's secretes as then any one could make any of these screens (including other suppliers). On that thought I just spoke with a fella who said vultec, dalite, and others get many of the fabrics from the same supplier (never heard this before but would not shock me if that were true).I just figured if firehawk was the standard (as noted on many home theater sites)the colour of grey they use might be a good place to start in "painting a screen". I believe stewart sprays screens and builds up layers....when looking at the surface you can also see "flakes" every so often so it seems to me they are going more the reflective particle (as in aluminum or some other medium) as opposed to beads or shean.
As I said, I'm unsure what or how Stewart makes their screens at the moment. I have yet to see one. :dunno: Hopefully soon though! :bigsmile:

Stewart is sending me samples as well...they were easy to get I should have them by friday. Hopefully the samples won't be of the 2"x4" variety that elite sent me (I had to tape 6 togeather to get any type of viewable size). Dalite sent 12"x12" which were more usable as guess as to what the screen would look like.

I may be back to trying the BW sprayed on an dalite HC pull down as a tester (I have the screen and it is no longer the correct set up for my current room/projector). I would love to see how it compares to the other samples I have gotten.
Talk to Harp about a BW-flex mix he's been testing.

Stewart usually sends 8.5X11" samples I was told. I'm supposed to get large samples - 24" square or larger. You can always call them back and say you're not convinced and you'd like a larger sample. :T
 

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Re: Narrowing the Playing Field

As I said, I'm unsure what or how Stewart makes their screens at the moment. I have yet to see one. :dunno: Hopefully soon though! :bigsmile:



Talk to Harp about a BW-flex mix he's been testing.

Stewart usually sends 8.5X11" samples I was told. I'm supposed to get large samples - 24" square or larger. You can always call them back and say you're not convinced and you'd like a larger sample. :T

They "stewart" are sending firehawk g3 and sst i believe...if I get mine before you and decide against it I will be happy to send to you:bigsmile:

I have a few leads on Stewart screens with prices closer to reality ( I give Stewart big props for being able to get folks to pay thousands for their screens but I am not in that group) and if I like Stewart and don't buy one I may try to make one?

If I start the process with the BW painting I will also try a "fh" BW buy using a grey closer to them to test and see how they all look compared to each other (all the samples and BW and "FH"BW).
 

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As far as a good place to start for painting a screen, if a person is looking for a gray screen, this thread is probably the perfect place to start. A neutral screen will always provide the best palate and provide the most accurate color reproduction.

Unless things changed, the G2 wasn't very neutral, and the darker the screen is, the harder it will push colors if it isn't a well balanced screen. One thing to keep in mind about installers is profit margin. So it doesn't necessarily mean just because one thing is used that it's the best- could just be that it yields the highest profit margin.

The bigger thing though is evaluating what type of screen would work best for you. Many people jump on one type of screen without truly evaluating their complete room setting as well as the projector.
Yes i agree for $$$ is not always better...just trying to test all I can to understand what is availible and at what cost.

Not sure if it is marketing but most folks (even other screen companies) are telling me it's the best (stewart FH) so I would like to see in my room with my projector (ax 200u) what is produced...and I understand you won't compare diy to man screens but it doesn't mean I can't:R
 

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Re: Narrowing the Playing Field

As I said, I'm unsure what or how Stewart makes their screens at the moment. I have yet to see one. :dunno: Hopefully soon though! :bigsmile:



Talk to Harp about a BW-flex mix he's been testing.

Stewart usually sends 8.5X11" samples I was told. I'm supposed to get large samples - 24" square or larger. You can always call them back and say you're not convinced and you'd like a larger sample. :T
Got FH G3, FH SST, GH, and studio 130 in today and did a little testing. First thought is the colour of the screen is the color of the fabric as in the vinyl is the same colour all the way through (dalite screens I believe are applied to a blackk backing as is the case with my high power...white front black back). The back, front, sides of the stewart samples are the same colour. The "viewable side" looks to have an application of highly reflective particles (not beeds or sheen)I think they are sprayed on not rolled on (stewart talks about sparying and building up layers on as opposed to rolling out screens). I have never seen a BW screen but let's put it this way based on what I've read I think it would look very similar (not the shade of grey but the small reflective particles):R and would not be shocked to find out the "shiny particles" I am seeing on the stewart samples are a metal of sorts:T

they may not rush to send you samples.....
 

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Well I haven't seen anything from Stewart yet... :foottap: And it was supposed to have been shipped out before yours. :scratch:

Da-Lite uses a fiberglass material for some of their screens. I have the Joe Kane screen sitting in my office. But I haven't opened the box yet.
 

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Well I haven't seen anything from Stewart yet... :foottap: And it was supposed to have been shipped out before yours. :scratch:

Da-Lite uses a fiberglass material for some of their screens. I have the Joe Kane screen sitting in my office. But I haven't opened the box yet.
The "dragonfly screen" high contrast/grey should arrive thursday or Friday (dragonfly has to be one of the worst names for a projector screen) and I'll do some comparisons between it, dalite hp 88" screen, and stewart samples. If I decide to keep the "new" dragonfly screen I will be happy to send you the stewart samples if you like (they are about the size of standard sheet of paper).
 

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Discussion Starter #140
Honestly... if you are talking about an 88" diagonal screen... I'd personally recommend an OTS grey.
 
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