[caminoguy]

hey guys

I'm interested in building my first sub to complement my zaph audio sr71 bookshelf mains. I'm going to be listening to rock/metal 50% of the time using 2.1 and will use the sub the other 50% in 5.1 for ht/xbox. The sub will mostly be in a room that is 12'x16' and occasionally in a room that is 14' x 25'. I am torn between a css 10sdx with 300w bash and a shiva-x2 with 300w or 500w bash. I'm afraid that the 10" wont be enough for the larger room. My budget for the sub and amp is a max of $500 CAD. I would prefer the footprint of the sub to be no more than 20" wide x 20" deep x any height. Could you guys please recommend a slot ported enclosure design that would fit my needs in preferably smaller dimensions. I would like to stay away from a massive enclosure.

Any help would be appreciated

 

[Kevin Haskins]

I'm not trying to upsell you but if you have height, you may as well step up and buy the Tempest-X2 and run the 500W amp. The driver is $219 and the amp $250 and a sheet of MDF is $20. Even if you pay a little over your budget, you are going to get a LOT more output and it will end up being a wiser purchase. The key is you have to have the space and as long as you can build it tall, there is no reason not to go with as big a driver as you can afford.

Kevin Haskins
Exodus Audio

 

[evilskillit]

If you can afford it I would lean towards the Shiva-X2 with the 500 watt amp. It will be a lot more satisfying when watching movies.

As for enclosure size, figure out how many square inches you want 20x20x1 is 400 cubic inches so for a 20x20 footprint enclosure every 1 inch tall you make it adds 400 cubic inches. Actually those would be inside measurements tho, you would have to refigure to take into account the thickness of the materal, and subtract the volume of bracing and the driver and the port. Either way if your foot print can be 20x20 then you can make the enclosure as big as you could possibly need and keep it under 20x20x40 I think.

A shiva-x2 in a 5 cubic foot box Tuned to 17hz using the Bash500 would be perfect, nice response with an f3 of 17hz. Plenty of excursion to spare. You could use a slot port 3"x6"x27" slot port. I can post all sorts of pictures if you want but if you have WinISD you can just model it and play with it for yourself.

Edit* Actually if the manual is correct the Bash500 has a bass boost of 3db at 35hz with a cutoff frequency of 27, and that would suck. But it can be easily modified for a better operation of 1db boost at 22hz with a cutoff frequency of 14hz.

Edit again* I would probably agree with Kevin. I have to be honest for only $22 more I wonder why anyone wouldnt just get the Tempest over the Shiva. Unless the box requirements are just THAT much bigger, I haven't check them yet.

 

[Kevin Haskins]

I've modified the subsonic filter on the BASH amp and I think a lot of people would be seriously intimidated by that modification. The resistors are in a spot that makes the job a pain, even if you are handy with PCBs and soldering.

I think most people are much better off using the Dayton 500W amp @ $250 and you don't have to modify anything. Bite the bullet and buy the right part and you won't regret it. If you cheap-out trying to save a few dollars, you can regret it quickly. I've been in that spot many a time and every time I think I've learned my lesson, I do it again! ;-)

Kevin Haskins
Exodus Audio

 

[evilskillit]

Understandable. I think I've been spoiled by working at an electrical engineering firm with plenty of expensive soldering gear laying around that I can use

Plus the ability to change the boost and cutoff in case I ever end up repurposing the thing at a later date is attractive to me.

Say I decide to ditch the plate amp for your sub and get an EP2500 and a separate active crossover like the reckhorn. Then I've got the plate amp laying around. Maybe it gets used for some other cheap sub project somewhere else in the house, or for a friend. Suddenly I need the high cut up in the 25-30hz range. Get out the soldering iron and a few dollars worth of resistors and problem solved, cheap too!

I'm not arguing with you, I agree. I tend to forget that what works best for me is often not best for others.

Edit* I just looked more closely at the Dayton 500watt and realised that the EQ can be used to create a high cut, which I did not previously realise. You have taught me something today. For just about everyone that is an extra $25 well spent. Tho the Bash does have the possibility of a slightly lower high cut.

 

[Kevin Haskins]

At some point, I'm going to have a PCB design that allows DIYers to build their own subsonic filter, couple PEQ filters, gain and maybe a variable LP filter on a board. It is all fairly simple to design, and I'll sell it without a box to keep it cheap. I figure I'll just sell the board, and perhaps some of the parts and give the Digikey/Mouser BOM for the rest of the parts. It may not be a turn-key solution but it allows me to design exactly what I need for a given solution and allow people to build it cheap with any available amplifier. It would open-up the use of the EP-2500 or it's replacement for resonant builds and people can easily find their own box for it.


Kevin Haskins
Exodus Audio

 

[evilskillit]

That would be pretty nice. Ive looked for that sort of thing at places like Elliott Sound Products but haven't come across anything exactly like that so it would be a big contribution to the DIY community. I do have to ask tho, would it be less than just buying a Reckhorn B1 or B2. Even if it is better I wonder how many people would go through that if they weren't going to save some money, unless it just offered something they needed that the competition didn't.

I know that for some of Elliott's stuff by the time you buy the PCB, the components, the chassis, and the power supply you could have just bought something from Behringer or Rhane. Tho some of his other offerings like the audiophile headphone amps for under $150 built just can't be beat:spend:

 

[Dark Regent]

Might as well go for the Tempest-X2 if you're looking at a Shiva-X2 based on the difference in cost.

 

[caminoguy]

hey Guys

Thanks for the great feedback.

- I should have thought through putting any height for height restrictions would be fine. I actually don't want a 6' tall box...but something < or equal too 50" x 20" w x 20" d would be fine. So if i could squeeze a shiva into a 40" tall box that would be good.

- Now, I never really considered a 15" before because i honestly thought it would be too much sub and destroy the house:hsd: If the sub isnt overkill than $25 more is very reasonable. I think theres a recent thread going on right now with a tempest x2 in a taller/skinnier box so I'm going to follow that for consideration.

- I'm going to download winisd and try and learn it...thanks for the parameters on the shiva box.

- The Dayton 500w is on sale right now so this week would be a good time to buy. However, reviews mentioned that there is a noticable "hum" with this amp. Have you guys had any issues of that nature with this amp? Even though it would cost more in the end, would a bash 500 with a reckhorn b2 work or would i still have to modify the bash? My woodworking skills are decent but i seriously lack electronic skills.

Thanks

 

[Kevin Haskins]

That would be pretty nice. Ive looked for that sort of thing at places like Elliott Sound Products but haven't come across anything exactly like that so it would be a big contribution to the DIY community. I do have to ask tho, would it be less than just buying a Reckhorn B1 or B2. Even if it is better I wonder how many people would go through that if they weren't going to save some money, unless it just offered something they needed that the competition didn't.

I know that for some of Elliott's stuff by the time you buy the PCB, the components, the chassis, and the power supply you could have just bought something from Behringer or Rhane. Tho some of his other offerings like the audiophile headphone amps for under $150 built just can't be beat:spend:

It will almost always be the case, that a Behringer can build it and sell the device cheaper than you can buy a all the parts an assemble it. That is because mass manufacturing is a more efficient method of delivering goods and services. It is the reason the Chinese have a job and that Walmart dominates the retail environment...... economy of scale.

There are two situations where that isn't valid. The first, when you need something that isn't mass produced or can be found at Walmart, you have no choice but to piece it together in small volume. The second, when you don't count all the real cost. A DIYer doesn't count his/her labor, they may stick the PCB in a scrounged metal case and they may have parts in their part bin that they don't have to buy.

For me, it comes down more to having the freedom to design something without the constraints of trying to find something on the market that does the signal processing I need. Sure... there are plenty of EQ widgets out there, but often I need a specific function and nothing more.

Kevin Haskins
Exodus Audio

 

[Kevin Haskins]

hey Guys

Thanks for the great feedback.

- I should have thought through putting any height for height restrictions would be fine. I actually don't want a 6' tall box...but something < or equal too 50" x 20" w x 20" d would be fine. So if i could squeeze a shiva into a 40" tall box that would be good.

- Now, I never really considered a 15" before because i honestly thought it would be too much sub and destroy the house:hsd: If the sub isnt overkill than $25 more is very reasonable. I think theres a recent thread going on right now with a tempest x2 in a taller/skinnier box so I'm going to follow that for consideration.

- I'm going to download winisd and try and learn it...thanks for the parameters on the shiva box.

- The Dayton 500w is on sale right now so this week would be a good time to buy. However, reviews mentioned that there is a noticable "hum" with this amp. Have you guys had any issues of that nature with this amp? Even though it would cost more in the end, would a bash 500 with a reckhorn b2 work or would i still have to modify the bash? My woodworking skills are decent but i seriously lack electronic skills.

Thanks

Anything with a transformer can hum and anyone can get a ground loop hum. That is just the nature of audio. We have bad standards and the ones we do have are not universally followed and it creates situations where even well designed equipment can be put into a system and you can get hum/buzz.

If you hear of one or two instances of such behavior, I'd ignore it.

Kevin Haskins
Exodus Audio

 

[mlkmgr]

i have a shiva paired with the PE 500W amp and only hear the slightest hum if i am right next to the amp (within a foot or so). Considering i do not sit right next to the sub when watching movies, this is not an issue. even if the tempest may be considered "too much" for your application, it is better to have than to want. had the tempest been available when i purchased my shiva, i would have easily chosen it first.

 

[coachwoody]

So a little deeper regards the PE bash 500...I'm comfortable doing the soldering, but what is my most straightforward option to get good sound out of this amp and an Exodus Driver?

 

[coachwoody]

Let me clarify. I'm a first-time builder, with a small 12x17x8' space for primarily home theater and secondarily diverse music. Based on my application Kevin had suggested a slot port to save money on flared ports, but he directed me away from the Bash 500 due (I assume) to its shipping configuration. Since the Bash is on its way, now I guess I'm in the situation of building around it. Sealed if there is enough extension offered by the small room, slot port if I can get it to work with the amp, and PR if all else fails?

 

[coachwoody]

After Looking at the notes on the Tempest, I think I'll simply build a 5 cu ft sealed enclosure and call it a day. If I still need more bass than that, I'm sure I'll be looking for another place to play it.

 

[caminoguy]

I ordered a pe 500 watt amp today should be here in a week or so. PE had the bash amp on sale at a good price but i really dont want to be soldering.

I'm aiming to purchasing the driver in a month or so, and after the advice you guys gave me and seeing kevins simple slot port design...i'm leaning towards the tempest. I think i was misinformed by alot of car audio guys over the years that a 15" + woofer could never make tight accurate bass. As for the shiva-x2, I'd like to see what designs guys come up with over the next month or so...but for $25 more the tempest seems like a better bang for the buck.

thanks

 

[Kevin Haskins]

You need to change the subsonic filter to have a corner frequency of around 18Hz, and a Q < .9 or so. They have documentation on their site on how to perform the modification. It also voids your warranty so that is the other negative on the BASH 500W.

I want people to understand, I don't have a bias for or against any of these amps. I'll bring in a couple of the PE ones just to have something available for people but the bottom-line, is that I recommend what works the best for my subwoofers. Sometimes that is more expensive than another option but I'm balancing several factors. In this case, I'm balancing the fact that the BASH amp requires modification. The O-Audio amp has a goofy variable subsonic filter that has really high Q.

The only easily available part that doesn't require modification is the Dayton 500W at this time. I'd bring in my own amplifiers but I don't sell enough to justify buying 500 amplifiers (minimum OEM purchase QTY). They would have to cost in the neighborhood of $250 even if I did so they wouldn't be any more attractive than anything else on the market other than the fact that I could design the signal processing to actually work correctly. A DSP up there would be the best option because it would allow for the correct filter functions and infinite flexibility for various options via a simple software change. Of course that would cost more than $250 and I don't think people are interested in more features, they are interested in cheaper amps.

Kevin Haskins
Exodus Audio