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Hi, I've been a long time member over at AVS and have recently been reading the threads over here at the shack. Seems to be a lot more neutral opinions over here which I respect. I just bought my first projector after 2 years of debating! Mitsubishi HC3800. Doing a 106" screen at 13' away. Projector central calculator calculates 17fL. Up until very recently I was set on WA DW or FG. However I could decide on them. I knew the DW would wash out to often which ambient light and the FG may have been to dark. I was also concerned about hot spotting. I investigated a WA material that was somewhere between DW and FG but it seemed nothing really got popular.

So now I turned to the paints to see if I could find something that is between DW or FG. As you can tell I have done quite a lot of reading, but its often hard to find concise information. Perhaps someone can review estimated or measured gains of some of the paints. I realize this is only a 0 degrees viewing angle. I'll start with the laminates:

Designer White - 1.24
Fashion Grey - 0.85

I'm interested in the C&S which I think might be too light and wash out. Black Widow I think is 0.88 (someone confirm). The Scorpion combination of C&S and Black Widow sounds a bit to exotic finding all the ingredients which I am put off by. I am also interested in the Electra which sounds like it is close to Scorpion but might be easier to mix. It also sounds fun to help test. In some of the comparisons I really like the way the RS-MaxxMudd looks. I see it may hotspot, but not sure if it will with my PJ.

Anyways, can someone give a concise overview of the gains. Even if they are approximated. Also any recommendations would be great! As for light control, I do have light control, but being new to PJs I don't think I want to make it black every time we watch TV or a movie. Therefore I'm having a bit of a hard time to answer this question.
 

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Hi, I've been a long time member over at AVS and have recently been reading the threads over here at the shack. Seems to be a lot more neutral opinions over here which I respect.
Hi Pyro2, welcome to the Shack! :wave:

We are all about facts here at HTS rather than assumptive supposition or wishful thinking. That doesn't make us well thought of in certain circles.

I just bought my first projector after 2 years of debating! Mitsubishi HC3800. Doing a 106" screen at 13' away. Projector central calculator calculates 17fL. Up until very recently I was set on WA DW or FG. However I could decide on them. I knew the DW would wash out to often which ambient light and the FG may have been to dark. I was also concerned about hot spotting. I investigated a WA material that was somewhere between DW and FG but it seemed nothing really got popular.

So now I turned to the paints to see if I could find something that is between DW or FG. As you can tell I have done quite a lot of reading, but its often hard to find concise information. Perhaps someone can review estimated or measured gains of some of the paints. I realize this is only a 0 degrees viewing angle. I'll start with the laminates:

Designer White - 1.24
Fashion Grey - 0.85
I just looked at Mech's gain tests (http://www.mechman.net/gain/Compilation.htm) and DW comes in at 1.25-1.26 and has a very wide viewing angle. He didn't test FG. I can't be too much help to you on using laminates, Bill, Mech or some other knowledgeable member will have to jump in here for that.

I'm interested in the C&S which I think might be too light and wash out. Black Widow I think is 0.88 (someone confirm). The Scorpion combination of C&S and Black Widow sounds a bit to exotic finding all the ingredients which I am put off by. I am also interested in the Electra which sounds like it is close to Scorpion but might be easier to mix. It also sounds fun to help test. In some of the comparisons I really like the way the RS-MaxxMudd looks. I see it may hotspot, but not sure if it will with my PJ.
C&S™ was designed to be a bright neutral screen for use in low lumen situations in a dark room. It will tolerate a bit more ambient light than a pure white screen, but not much more before losing visible image contrast. The gain for C&S is around 1.0 at 0° viewing angle; other angles haven't been tested yet.

BW™ is our ambient light mix for most PJ's. In my opinion, your PJ has more than enough lumens to use this mix with your stated screen size; even when the PJ is run in low-lamp mode. The gain for this mix is 0.88-0.89 and it has no detectable viewing cone (see the gain test results).

Scorpion™ N8 is a combination of the above tested and proven mixes. No gain testing has been done on this mix yet.

Elektra™ is still in the development phase, but 1canuck2 made a screen with the N8 formula and the results are impressive. A N8.5 formula is also available for this series of mixes. No gain testing has been done yet.

With your PJ and screen size I would be very happy using BW™, but some people simply prefer a lighter screen than others - it falls to personal preference. If you want to try a lighter screen then Scorpion™ is the proven mix; if you are willing to test a mix still in development then you might think about Elektra™.

Anyways, can someone give a concise overview of the gains. Even if they are approximated. Also any recommendations would be great! As for light control, I do have light control, but being new to PJs I don't think I want to make it black every time we watch TV or a movie. Therefore I'm having a bit of a hard time to answer this question.
I've given the gain values that I know of. To guess at gain values is a dangerous thing since they simply can't be determined "by eye", that is where so much misinformation has come from.

Don't get caught up in the "Gain Game" and start thinking that gain is the ultimate attribute to judge a screen by. Gain is only one screen attribute, and with todays brighter PJ's it's usually not the most important one. Too much gain results in hot spotting at worst, and a limited viewing cone at best. Some of the DIY screen mixes on other forums report gain values over 1.0 even for their darker mixes. Such a mix isn't hard to achieve, all you have to do is make the mix shinier; but this will give it a visible viewing cone, and if way overdone will result in hot spotting.
 

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Welcome to the Shack pyro2! :wave:

I don't recall ever doing a gain reading on Fashion Grey. :scratch: But if I did my hunch is .8 would be pretty close to what it is. The gain readings aren't approximations. They are readings performed to industry standards. We use a block of Magnesium Carbonate as our reference and a Sekonic spotmeter for the actual measures. You can pretty much take the measures to the bank.

For your situation I'd go with Black Widow. It's the best diy gray screen I've tested. :bigsmile: Scorpion is a bit more tedious but it performs well from what I can tell. Elektra is basically for folks who either want easy or cannot find everything for Scorpion. While we haven't tested the two side by side, I'd guess Scorpion has equal blacks with slightly better whites. But that is a guess!

If you get a chance, let us know what you think of your HC3800 here. :T
 

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First welcome to the Shack and maybe even welcome home! :) One major difference here is we will discuss everything, DIY vs commercial, Commercial vs DIY AND the pros and cons of each side, or we can sit down and talk about a commercial product without getting into a snit. We've tested a huge variety of commercial screens and I'd say we have the largest compilation of DIY screen testing and emperical evaluation on the web.


pyro2 said:
Hi, I've been a long time member over at AVS and have recently been reading the threads over here at the shack. Seems to be a lot more neutral opinions over here which I respect.
Hi Pyro2, welcome to the Shack! :wave:

We are all about facts here at HTS rather than assumptive supposition or wishful thinking. That doesn't make us well thought of in certain circles.

As Don said, we're about facts and actual testing here, but I want to point out and stress that as much as someone keeps trying to say, we do in fact do empirical testing too! Interestingly we know for a fact they frequently read what we are doing over here because, and this is the interesting part... they constantly quote our test data! So on one hand there is condemnation saying we are biased and wrong on everything, yet for gain values for SF and other 'house specials', when they tell people gain values they are repeating what we tested it as, not their own independant test results. That has to say something right there I think... we're good enough to quote when it's favorable, but not when it tells the truth and isn't good news.

Also I noticed a skewing of things too. When it comes to the gain on their screens they always round up, and when it comes to something anyone else developed (not just us) they round down. I always smile because not only do I see what's going on, I also have been lecturing for years now that gain is not the ultimate screen attribute. Think of it like stuffing a 454 into a Yugo... sure it will go fast, but there sure would be a ton of cons as well.


I just looked at Mech's gain tests (http://www.mechman.net/gain/Compilation.htm) and DW comes in at 1.25-1.26 and has a very wide viewing angle. He didn't test FG. I can't be too much help to you on using laminates, Bill, Mech or some other knowledgeable member will have to jump in here for that.

As much as some hate them because they are so simple, virtually indestructable, and perform so well... laminates are an outstanding screen option. For someone that doesn't want to paint and wants a gray screen it may be the only single sheet DIY option out there.

I was working with Wilsonart around a year and a half ago to come up with a new line of grays, an N8.5 and an N9 gray. They are well aware of what we are using them for and have seen the forum too. They actually sent me two 4'x8' sheets at no cost! These were either experimental colors or limited run colors. They are not dead bang N8.5 or N9 but they are at least on target on the Chromaticity chart. I actually did a give away for them and Tritonman lives nearby and ended up picking up one. I still have the other sheet if anyone wants it.

Check his thread out, I've seen his HT setup in person and it is very very nice. I went home drooling!

Don covered our custom DIY paints pretty good so not much to add. I totally agree


C&S™ was designed to be a bright neutral screen for use in low lumen situations in a dark room. It will tolerate a bit more ambient light than a pure white screen, but not much more before losing visible image contrast. The gain for C&S is around 1.0 at 0° viewing angle; other angles haven't been tested yet.

BW™ is our ambient light mix for most PJ's. In my opinion, your PJ has more than enough lumens to use this mix with your stated screen size; even when the PJ is run in low-lamp mode. The gain for this mix is 0.88-0.89 and it has no detectable viewing cone (see the gain test results).

Scorpion™ N8 is a combination of the above tested and proven mixes. No gain testing has been done on this mix yet.

Elektra™ is still in the development phase, but 1canuck2 made a screen with the N8 formula and the results are impressive. A N8.5 formula is also available for this series of mixes. No gain testing has been done yet.

With your PJ and screen size I would be very happy using BW™, but some people simply prefer a lighter screen than others - it falls to personal preference. If you want to try a lighter screen then Scorpion™ is the proven mix; if you are willing to test a mix still in development then you might think about Elektra™.

Black Widow™ would work very well with that 17fL of light at the screen you have, but so would Scorpion™. It's an N8 gray so a tad lighter than BW™, but both would serve you well. Kinda the beauty of Scorpion™ is that it's a 1:1 mix of C&S™ and BW™ so you actually could have three great screen options to test and try out! Although keep in mind it is impossible to test two screens that are very different in shade and characteristics and get anything meaningful out of that comparison!

I can say this, Black Widow™ is a favorite of the aviation community and is used in both commercial and with hobbyists. In fact there is a forum out there devoted to BW™ for the aviation community!


I've given the gain values that I know of. To guess at gain values is a dangerous thing since they simply can't be determined "by eye", that is where so much misinformation has come from.

Don't get caught up in the "Gain Game" and start thinking that gain is the ultimate attribute to judge a screen by. Gain is only one screen attribute, and with todays brighter PJ's it's usually not the most important one. Too much gain results in hot spotting at worst, and a limited viewing cone at best. Some of the DIY screen mixes on other forums report gain values over 1.0 even for their darker mixes. Such a mix isn't hard to achieve, all you have to do is make the mix shinier; but this will give it a visible viewing cone, and if way overdone will result in hot spotting.
Well said by Don. Gain is hyped way too much.

If you haven't already, read through the Gain and Other Confusing Topics thread. Gain is just one aspect of a screen and in fact all commercial companies, and professional installers worth their salt will tell you that the ideal screen is the one that's as close to a unity gain of 1 as possible. I won't repeat what's in the thread above or what I have been preaching for years about!

Again, welcome back and don't be afraid to ask questions about anything, even commercial stuff if you are interested in that route. Either way is fine with us, our job is to make sure you get the best screen for your setting and that you're happy! :)
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
I got the FG gain from your article explaining gain and specularity, although that I assume was only 0 degrees. I understand what hot spotting is from. I am hoping that the best technical specs equal the best perceived picture. I know that from the audio world that not always does perfect specs equal better sound quality which is all subjective.

I ended up going to Home Depot today to make my wood frame. I ruled out Scorpion due its complexity, so its between BW and Electra N8. I ended up buying the ingredients for the Electra N8, although wish I didn't since I'm starting to agree with the BW recomendation. I think I wish it was a tad bit lighter. Any hope I can use those ingredients for BW?

BW is advertised as 7.5. Also is there an explanation of exactly what N numbers mean? I know lower is darker gray and higher numbers are lighter. But I haven't seen a real explanation on any of these threads yet.
 

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Black Widow™ is N7.5

What the 'N' stands for is the Munsell gray rating. 0 is black, and 10 is white. 1 to 9 is the neutral gray scale. So as you can see, the lower the number is the darker the gray is.

One very important thing to keep in mind is neutral gray isn't a color. Anything that isn't neutral is a color, and we don't want a color for our screen. Color will have an impact on the image and cause a color push.

Some people throw around the 'N' rating pretty liberally but you can rest assured if we say something is N8 it is a true Munsell N8 gray. Other's can't say that. Well they can say anything they want, they just can't say it and and back it up. That's the great thing about data, if someone is really interested in seeing the proof we can back it up.

What you say about perfect specs not always being perfect in the real world- I know what you mean. With screens though you really do want it to be as close to neutral as possible or else it will cause a color push or shift to the image. The industry has known this for decades too, and most commercial screens are definitely on target for the Chromaticity graph, some even well within D65 neutral tolerances. Recently we're even starting to see high priced commercial screens that are highlighting the fact they are D65 neutral. I'd like to take credit for that since I have been pushing and preaching D65 screens for several years now but I can't. The point is though in this particular case (screens), the better the specs are, the better the screen will be.

And when I say better, I mean it will be more accurate at reproducing colors exactly as the projector is producing them, more efficient- meaning brighter but more natural in appearance, and more transparent- meaning you 'don't see' the screen when you are watching a movie and feel like you are looking through a window.

Don't go by what we say either. Talk to the consultants at Projector People, or any reputable company that sells/installs screens. Here are the attributes of a good screen:
  • Matte fininsh- any noticeable sheen is a bad thing
  • Neutral balance- As mentioned numerous times, anything but neutral will introduce a color push. It might be a very minor color push, but there will be one none the less. The closer the screen is to D65, the better.
  • Gain between .8 to 1.2- Tyically gain is a tool to achieve industry recommended fL at the screen, it is NOT a brightness knob as some people seem to treat it.
  • Slight texture- too much is not good, but we also don't want a slick glass smooth surface either. A completely smooth surface will not diffuse the light the same way as a surface with some texture. What you will get will be a harsher image that tends to hot spot. Note: Spraying produces the smoothest surface, but even a sprayed screen has some texture to it.
Like I said, don't go by what we say. I have no problem with anyone getting a second opinion. I really do believe if you do go ask others in the industry and hear they are saying the same things we have been for years now that you'll definitely be back :)
 

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I ended up going to Home Depot today to make my wood frame. I ruled out Scorpion due its complexity, so its between BW and Electra N8. I ended up buying the ingredients for the Electra N8, although wish I didn't since I'm starting to agree with the BW recomendation. I think I wish it was a tad bit lighter. Any hope I can use those ingredients for BW?
Sorry, the base paint color for making C&S™ (which is what is used for making the Elektra™ mixes) is not the same color as the base used for making BW™. Also, Craft Smart Metallic Silver cannot be substituted for Auto Air Aluminum - fine.

A note for those that haven't seen the Elektra™ thread in the Developers forum; Elektra™ is basically C&S™ that has a dark gray paint added to it in various amounts to get various N shades of mix. N8.5 and N8 formulae have been determined with darker shades to follow.

BW is advertised as 7.5. Also is there an explanation of exactly what N numbers mean? I know lower is darker gray and higher numbers are lighter. But I haven't seen a real explanation on any of these threads yet.
Just to add to what Bill said, N values are not linear (IIRC they are logarithmic, but I might be wrong about that). For example, I recently had a N3 gray made up at Lowe's and by doubling the amounts of the tints used to make the N3 the result was only a N2.6!

Don't stress overmuch about a N0.5 shade difference. Sure, you can tell the difference between them, but it isn't a night-and-day difference; it is in fact fairly subtle. In my experience, most people could not tell a N0.1 difference between two neutral mixes; and can only tell mixes N0.2 apart in literal side-by-side testing.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
So one last question which may be difficult to answer. Back at AVS they like to throw away the term making the image "pop". While I'm not sure I could put a definition to that, I would think it is a desired effect. Again I'm relating this to what specs give speakers good "imaging". Not sure you can measure that one.

I built my frame tonight. I think I finally decided on BW, however I already bought $25 of C&S. impulse decisions at Home Depot! Really wish I didn't buy that. So I'm heading to Michael's tomorrow to hopefully find some BOC and I'll pick up the final ingredient of Craft Smart Metallic Silver since that's the only ingredient I'm missing for N8 Elektra and I think its cheap. I'll head over to that forum and hope I can help over there. I'll probably paint at the end of the week.

I would also recommend to clean up the Black Widow thread, as I find the instructions a bit wordy and difficult to follow. I'm not picking a fight :boxer: but the C&S and Scorpion are very consise and easy to scroll through and find what your looking for. That's important for the amount of information spread all over.

For reference, I put this quick overview of all the options I looked at. I prefer to see concise information in spreadsheet for quick comparisons. I think it would help newcomers. I started to put color temps in, but couldn't find enough data easily.

Screen Gain Munsell Rating
----------------------------------------------------
Elektra N8 not tested N8
Elektra N8.5 not tested N8.5
Black Widow 0.88-0.89 N7.5
Cream & Sugar 1.0 N9
Scorpion not tested N8
Kilz N9.25
Designer White Laminate 1.25 N9.25
Fashion Grey Laminate 0.85 N7.75
 

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So one last question which may be difficult to answer. Back at AVS they like to throw away the term making the image "pop". While I'm not sure I could put a definition to that, I would think it is a desired effect. Again I'm relating this to what specs give speakers good "imaging". Not sure you can measure that one.
Yes, they like to talk about their screens having "pop" at AVS, but I don't remember anyone (especially those that love to use the term) ever really defining it. Here is something I wrote about "pop" some time ago:
"As for "pop", that can be a hard term to quantify. To some it means that colors are their brightest, to others it means that colors are richer and more saturated. I use the latter definition when I use "pop" and while C&S will have more than a white screen, it will have less than darker gray screens depending on your screen size and PJ brightness. It's also a term that is quite subjective."

I built my frame tonight. I think I finally decided on BW, however I already bought $25 of C&S. impulse decisions at Home Depot! Really wish I didn't buy that. So I'm heading to Michael's tomorrow to hopefully find some BOC and I'll pick up the final ingredient of Craft Smart Metallic Silver since that's the only ingredient I'm missing for N8 Elektra and I think its cheap. I'll head over to that forum and hope I can help over there. I'll probably paint at the end of the week.
Sorry you got the Elektra™ ingredients on impulse and then thought better of it. If you do make an Elektra™ screen and later decide the go with BW™, you can simply apply that mix over the old screen without priming again. Would be glad to have you in the Elektra™ thread, but the thread that started this mix is called "HTS-X2 - an experimental N8 reflective screen mix" here.

I would also recommend to clean up the Black Widow thread, as I find the instructions a bit wordy and difficult to follow. I'm not picking a fight :boxer: but the C&S and Scorpion are very consise and easy to scroll through and find what your looking for. That's important for the amount of information spread all over.
No worries! Constructive criticism is welcome here. ;)

For reference, I put this quick overview of all the options I looked at. I prefer to see concise information in spreadsheet for quick comparisons. I think it would help newcomers. I started to put color temps in, but couldn't find enough data easily.

Screen Gain Munsell Rating
----------------------------------------------------
Elektra N8 not tested N8
Elektra N8.5 not tested N8.5
Black Widow 0.88-0.89 N7.5
Cream & Sugar 1.0 N9
Scorpion not tested N8
Kilz N9.25
Designer White Laminate 1.25 N9.25
Fashion Grey Laminate 0.85 N7.75
Thanks! There should probably be a table like this in the gain thread, but this table only shows 0° gain which means little if it drops off too rapidly as one moves off-axis.
 

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So one last question which may be difficult to answer. Back at AVS they like to throw away the term making the image "pop". While I'm not sure I could put a definition to that, I would think it is a desired effect. Again I'm relating this to what specs give speakers good "imaging". Not sure you can measure that one.
Any good screen should 'go away' when being viewed, meaning you totally forget you are looking at a screen and it becomes invisible and all you see is the movie- like you are looking through a window. The 'pop' is the bright vivid image, often it's actually mild hot spotting that's being called 'pop'. Think of it exactly the same as all of those HDTVs cranked to the max when you walk into Sams Club or any big box store. They are cranked up and oversaturated to grab your attention. Once you get it home though and most people don't want to watch with those settings, but they sure do get your attention! That's pretty much what they are calling 'pop'.

Here is what I call pop sizzle and va va va voom!



And no hot spotting! :)


Thanks for the suggestion about revamping the BW thread. Sometimes we forget what it's like for someone new, or we know where things are at so we don't think about it. Adding 'clean up the BW thread' to the 2010 list! :)
 

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Yes, they like to talk about their screens having "pop" at AVS, but I don't remember anyone (especially those that love to use the term) ever really defining it. Here is something I wrote about "pop" some time ago:
"As for "pop", that can be a hard term to quantify. To some it means that colors are their brightest, to others it means that colors are richer and more saturated. I use the latter definition when I use "pop" and while C&S will have more than a white screen, it will have less than darker gray screens depending on your screen size and PJ brightness. It's also a term that is quite subjective."
Don... man are you quick! I was typing a reply same time yoiu were.

The one I loved was when the term 'warm spotting' started making the rounds and it was actually said in favorable terms and as an explanation to what was behind the 'pop'. Warm spotting has since become a phrase of the past, but it sure was a fun one while it lasted!

Pyro... bottom line is you'll hear all kinds of general buzz words like 'pop', '3D', 'Ambient light', as well as many many other terms meant to make a big impression with very little behind it. Screenies are always subjective. Its like car shopping... very few people would go to a car lot and take whatever the saleman tells them as an absolute. Most check out things like consumer reports, reviews and customer comments, as well as looking at the performance specs. It's the same here. If you hear lots of impressive buzz words, ask to see the specs too. If they show them to you and they are done to industry standards then it probably is a great option. However if they start to dance around and sing the song that data and specs are ruining things, or other explainations to avoid the topic...

Me personally I don't do well at used car lots. Whenever the saleman pulls the routine that he has to go talk to his manager... I just leave! I want someone that shoots straight with me and I will always do the same with whoever I am talking to.
 

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Pyro I saw your post elsewhere asking about the shade of SF as well as some other people asking if there has ever been an independent appraisal of BW.

We have done a lot of testing and comparisons but the problem is they keep changing the formula for their screen paints. That is frustrating to no end when you're trying to evaluate something, but it comes in very handy on their end because any negative reviews or if the data comes back looking bad... it's easy to just say that was an old mix and blow it off as such. I guarantee you if you decide on SF screen that six months after you make your screen the mix will change again and then that will now be the best there is... no longer the screen you were convinced to go with. My question always has been if it really is the best and works better than anything out there... Why change it? None of our stuff changes with the exception of something becoming no longer available.

SF can be many different colors that are grayish in hue. This is because they use different amounts of the 'colorant'. I've asked many many times what the theory and concept is behind the 'colorant' and never get an answer. What it is used for though is to make the overall mix lighter or darker and us supposed to make SF infinitely adjustable. Elektra is a much more refined way of doing the exact same thing and will produce an actual D65 screen whereas SF isn't neutral, but it also isn't designed as a neutral screen. Then again it depends on when the question comes up... sometimes it is said it is D65 neutral.

From the commercial site
Black Flame Light Fusion utilizes the pigments
whose properties are inherent in all electronically reproduced images, and combines
them within a translucent base containing additional Silver and Pearlescent properties.
This allows the surface to present a more vivid, 3-Dimensional projected image
than any Front Projection Screen has ever accomplished before. But in addition to doing
so, it also works to reject nearly all Ambient light that exists within the viewing area,
allowing the use of extremely large Screens in locations previously unable to accept
them due to cost or practicality.
Black Flame screens are a fusion of RGB pigments designed to specifically work more efficiently with the RGB bands of your projector. This increased efficiency of both reflection and absorption of color combines to maximize both ambient and controlled viewing experiences.
Sounds pretty impressive! I mean seriously it really does. That is until you ask some questions. Then you find out no readings have been taken (by them at least) and all the research and development is totally by eye and the theory is mainly forum fodder not actual text book color science. I actually asked the color science department director at RIT about the "theory' about using RGB pigments and if that is better spectrally than a D65 neutral palate and the answer was no. So I tried asking Maurice again and I never get an answer... it always ends in a flame war.

The questions people really should be asking is if these guys are pros, then why aren't they using industry standards and seeing they have their own company why can't they have done some actual testing... it isn't that hard or expensive. How is that relevant to things? Because SF and BF are one in the same. If they can't back up one, how are people supposed to believe what they say about the other? The only data they have is what we tested, and then they only use what they like. As far as the gain, whatever he is stating as the current gain of SF is incorrect because they changed the formula. It's probably close, but that can't be said for certain.

As far as an independent test, I'd probably say these guys are what you are looking for...
These guys have used everything... commercial products, DIY mixes... and I can genuinely say they are completely independant of HTS or other Home Theater forum sites and all they care about is what works.

Now as far as the Real McCoy and having a full blown independant shoot out done, I have been trying for a long time now to get one of the big HT magazines to pick up on this and actually test and evaluate the 'best of DIY' complete with their own data tests for color balance and gain... but nobody wants to do this. It just not in their interest to do an article that tells people they can spend less than $100 and have something comparable to a several thousand dollar screen, especially when they get some major advertising bucks from those same companies. Like I said... it's just not in their best interests.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I'm glad to see my response to Silver Fire was mis-interpreted slightly. That means I am staying neutral or at least posting without bias which I am trying very hard to do.

I have dismissed Silver Fire a while ago for two reasons:

1. Too many ingredients. I put a threshold on the complexity of each mix and some where too time consuming to get all the paints.

2. Organization. I have had trouble finding clear concise information on Silver Fire. Arguments of whether you need an arcylic mirror complicated the subject. This is partly due to the various versions of SF that have come about over time as well as what starts as a relevant thread and then turns into a flame war - oh wait, and then there is one more relevant post somewhere in the middle that was not read.

One of the strong points about the mixes here are they are easy to find and nagivate to and you can usually find the mix formulas and backing data fairly easily. I still suggest improvements such as suggesting mech to clean up the BW thread as I still have trouble with that one. Mech put it on his 2010 list :clap:

Personally, according to my research, I would go with Black Widow over Silver Fire any day. I would love to try BW, but I think its simply too dark of a shade for my personal preference. I think we can agree that everyone has a different preference of (neutral) gray colors.

In the end, I have completed my Elektra N8 screen and am very happy with it. You may have seen other posts where I commented it may have been too black for my liking. Turns out my HTPC Blu-ray player was terribly screwed up and clipping dark gray to black. And I don't mean just a slight calibration problem - it was BAD! Since fixing this and re-calibrating I am very pleased with the screen. If anything I may have wanted to go with the N8.5. I have a small sample, but the difference between the 0.5 is not that much.

And don't even bother with the magazines! They would lose all their advertisers if they did something like that!
 

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I just did a search for Electra and didn't find anything. If anyone can provide a link to the original thread, or the ingredients, I would appreciate it.
 

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I just did a search for Electra and didn't find anything. If anyone can provide a link to the original thread, or the ingredients, I would appreciate it.
Since this mix series is still in active development it is in the Developers forum. The main mix thread for Elektra™ is here, but most of the workup and the screen trial is here.

It's also spelled with a 'k', not a 'c'. ;)
 

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Thanks guys. Don said in that thread:

"As for lightening BW™, it was found that white paint could be added to lighten the mix to N8 without affecting the reflective properties too much, but that was the limit. I believe the ratio for that mix is 4:1:1 Bermuda Beige/AAA-F/White"

This seems like the easiest way to go to get to N8, imo.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Wish I knew you could do BW in N8 before I decided to go with Elektra, as I was pretty sure I wanted N8-N8.5. However this would be diluting the AAA a little bit.

Any guesses as to what you think would have better overall "performance": Elektra N8 or BW N8? I realize this will be guesses since I don't think either mixture is widely used or tested.
 

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Wish I knew you could do BW in N8 before I decided to go with Elektra, as I was pretty sure I wanted N8-N8.5. However this would be diluting the AAA a little bit.

Any guesses as to what you think would have better overall "performance": Elektra N8 or BW N8? I realize this will be guesses since I don't think either mixture is widely used or tested.
My hunch would be that it would be a wash. We never really released the 4:1:1 mix since it did actually dilute the AAA down a bit. We tried to find something that would keep the AAA at 20% but couldn't. Aluminum is pretty stubborn.
 
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