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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello Friends...

My system's setup is as follows:

A Panasonic 'BD10A Blu ray Player is running HDMI OUT for both audio AND video (that's all that is coming out of the player -- no analog connections, etc....JUST HDMI) to an Onkyo TX-SR605 receiver's HDMI IN (1)...from there, a second HDMI cable is going from the 605's HDMI OUT to my Sony KDS-50A2020 rear projection HDTV's HDMI IN...

First of all, before I get to "system behavior problems" I have been experiencing, can someone confirm for me that this equipment is set up properly for passing high definition video AND audio from the player to the receiver and then on to the TV? The connections I described above are not using ANY other connections -- it's one HDMI cable out from the player to the receiver and then another HDMI cable from receiver to TV...THAT'S IT...

Now...the tricky part...

I have the Panasonic's DIGITAL AUDIO OUTPUT menu selections all set to BITSTREAM except for the DOLBY DIGITAL PLUS/DOLBY TRUEHD output which I have set to PCM, because this player cannot pass bitstreamed TrueHD signals (which my Onkyo can decode) and so it must decode the track internally and send it as PCM...

The problem is, under the Panasonic's "SPEAKER OUTPUT" settings menu, there are selections for 2 CHANNEL and MULTI CHANNEL...according to the manual, 2 CHANNEL should be used when the player is connected to equipment that CAN decode soundtracks, do calibrations, etc., and MULTI CHANNEL should be selected when connected equipment CANNOT do calibrations, distances, etc., so the '10A has to do them. I of course am connected to a receiver that CAN do these things, so according to the manual, I SHOULD be leaving this setting on 2 CHANNEL...only this setting does not play back my PCM tracks correctly at all -- it sends my receiver a two channel mixdown of the track and makes me select those horrible DSP modes which I KNOW are not the right way of playing back PCM multichannel tracks...

Now, if I switch to MULTI CHANNEL at the player, I get that menu that pops up asking me to set speaker sizes, delays, etc. AT THE BLU RAY PLAYER...I did all these adjustments IN MY RECEIVER already, but my question is, when I play multichannel PCM soundtracks on Blu rays, are the speaker sizes in the PLAYER'S menu making a difference in how these tracks are sounding?

Let me break it down even further...when my player is left on MULTI CHANNEL output and I play a disc with a TrueHD or uncompressed PCM track, my receiver reads "MULTICH" as the listening mode and "HDMI/PCM/MULTICHANNEL" illuminates in small letters above it...is this correct when playing back PCM tracks?

Now, if so, let's get back to what the speaker output selections in the player are doing here...I have been told TONS AND TONS of opinions on this matter and can't seem to get the right answer -- if I need to keep the Blu ray player's speaker settings to MULTI CHANNEL in order for these PCM tracks to pass correctly to my receiver, then what should the speaker sizes, distances, etc. be set to on the player so the tracks are passed correctly....or does this even matter over HDMI? I have been told that that speaker setup menu on the Panasonic is JUST for when you're connected via ANALOG OUT -- but what about MY situation where I'm connected JUST HDMI out? Do these speaker settings make a difference?

I took the advice from another site and changed these speaker settings to LARGE for every speaker in my system last night inside the player, and watched I AM LEGEND and selected its TrueHD track -- it didn't seem to sound any different than when I had the speakers set any other way; I don't really know what's going on here, but some people tell me that I need to have the speakers on the 10A set to LARGE so that there is no "double crossover" going on before it gets to my receiver, while some say just to leave the two main speakers on Large only, while some say if I'm running HDMI only, this menu shouldn't matter because once you're switched to HDMI AUDIO ON on the player, this multichannel speaker mode becomes "disabled" but I cannot seem to get a definitive answer on what these speaker settings should be set to when playing decoded PCM tracks...

The bottom line is that I just want to be sure I'm hearing those decoded TrueHD and uncompressed PCM tracks from my '10A when they're passing to my Onkyo receiver...

Can someone please help clear this up for me?

Thank you in advance....
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Re: My Onkyo 605 and its Working Relationship with the Panasonic

Let me say thank you once more to anyone that can help...
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
My Onkyo 605 and its Working Relationship with the Panasonic

And here's another issue...

Could it be that my HDMI cables connecting the BD player and receiver are not sending the TrueHD or uncompressed tracks in their full glory? Would I be hearing anything at all then?

When I pass bitstreamed Dolby and DTS to the receiver from my Blu ray player over HDMI, they seem to pass just fine, with my receiver reading and registering "Dolby D" or "DTS" on the display...

But, how do I know if the full, uncompressed audio is coming over PCM from this player with the cables I have?
 

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Re: My Onkyo 605 and its Working Relationship with the Panasonic


Sounds like you’re confusing the digital movie (Dolby Digital) settings with the analog multi-channel audio (DVD-A). The two-channel or multi-channel settings are for the analog connections. You don’t even need to fool with them unless you are using the analog outputs, and there is no reason to use those if you have a digital audio connection (coaxial or optical) to the receiver. You might need to read up on DVD-A.

DVD-Audio Tutorial

Regards,
Wayne
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Re: My Onkyo 605 and its Working Relationship with the Panasonic

Sounds like you’re confusing the digital movie (Dolby Digital) settings with the analog multi-channel audio (DVD-A). The two-channel or multi-channel settings are for the analog connections. You don’t even need to fool with them unless you are using the analog outputs, and there is no reason to use those if you have a digital audio connection (coaxial or optical) to the receiver. You might need to read up on DVD-A.

DVD-Audio Tutorial

Regards,
Wayne
Wayne,

Thank you once again...

I am not using coptical or coax, but rather HDMI ONLY for connections, but either way, it's DIGITAL...

But it's not that I'm confusing the difference between analog interface and digital; this "speaker settings" menu on my Blu ray player somehow DOES affect audio when playing PCM tracks that are decoded in this player -- Dolby TrueHD, etc. -- and how they're sent to my receiver...the receiver sees "MULTICH" as the listening mode when I play these tracks, but the issue is what those speaker settings need to be on in the Panasonic's MultiChannel speaker settings menu -- many on another site suggested these DO need to be set up even though I'm running just HDMI; are you saying these are just ignored because I am connected digitally?

P.S. I am not using ANY DVD-Audio or SACD in this system, so that suggestion is not relevant.
 

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Re: My Onkyo 605 and its Working Relationship with the Panasonic


Okay then, if you're using HDMI and not DVD-A, then nothing in the player’s menu relating to the analog multi-channel outputs should be relevant for your application. If you can provide a link to the Panasonic’s manual maybe I or someone else can help you decipher it.

Regards,
Wayne
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Re: My Onkyo 605 and its Working Relationship with the Panasonic

Okay then, if you're using HDMI and not DVD-A, then nothing in the player’s menu relating to the analog multi-channel outputs should be relevant for your application.

That's what I'm trying to figure out here; if you look at the original post I put up, I mention that my system is connected as follows:

HDMI A/V OUT from my Blu ray player to Onkyo receiver's HDMI IN...from there, a second HDMI cable is going from my receiver's HDMI OUT to my Sony TV's HDMI IN...THAT'S IT...no other connections are being made...no analog and no coax/optical digital...

Given this scenario, are you SURE I do not need to set those "Speaker Settings" in the Panasonic Blu ray player? These are ONLY for analog out setup? I only ask so many times because I have been misled in so many other sites regarding this; many tell me that the speaker sizes MUST be set in this menu even though I'm connected via HDMI only so the decoded PCM tracks play back right as multichannel PCM to my receiver...

Are you saying I don't need to worry at all about what these speaker sizes IN THE PLAYER are set to because I'm running digital HDMI? All the calibrations have been completed in my receiver already, so that's done -- speaker crossovers, calibration levels, etc. -- but do the settings in the BLU RAY PLAYER matter too?

If you can provide a link to the Panasonic’s manual maybe I or someone else can help you decipher it.

Okay; I appreciate that. Let me see if I can find it...

Thanks, Wayne.
 

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Re: My Onkyo 605 and its Working Relationship with the Panasonic


Given this scenario, are you SURE I do not need to set those "Speaker Settings" in the Panasonic Blu ray player? These are ONLY for analog out setup? I only ask so many times because I have been misled in so many other sites regarding this; many tell me that the speaker sizes MUST be set in this menu even though I'm connected via HDMI only so the decoded PCM tracks play back right as multichannel PCM to my receiver...
I can’t be totally sure without looking at the manual, but even if what they are saying is true, that should only be relevant to DVD-A. The receiver does all the speaker settings for Dolby Digital, so do that and you’re good to go for movies.

Regards,
Wayne
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Re: My Onkyo 605 and its Working Relationship with the Panasonic

I can’t be totally sure without looking at the manual, but even if what they are saying is true, that should only be relevant to DVD-A. The receiver does all the speaker settings for Dolby Digital, so do that and you’re good to go for movies.

Regards,
Wayne
Well, it should ALSO be relevant for a DVD/Blu ray player connected with ANALOG OUTS, not just DVD-Audio, shouldn't it?

I will try and get that link to the manual...
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Re: My Onkyo 605 and its Working Relationship with the Panasonic

If you can provide a link to the Panasonic’s manual maybe I or someone else can help you decipher it.

Okay Wayne...found the link...see if this works:

http://service.us.Panasonic.com/OPERMANPDF/DMPBD10A-MUL.PDF



If anyone can make any sense of this "multichannel PCM" thing for me based on the manual, and what my speaker sizes should be on IN THE PLAYER or if it even matters over HDMI, I would greatly appreciate it...
 

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Re: My Onkyo 605 and its Working Relationship with the Panasonic


Okay, I think I’ve found what you need.

A Panasonic 'BD10A Blu ray Player is running HDMI OUT for both audio AND video (that's all that is coming out of the player -- no analog connections, etc....JUST HDMI) to an Onkyo TX-SR605 receiver's HDMI IN (1)...from there, a second HDMI cable is going from the 605's HDMI OUT to my Sony KDS-50A2020 rear projection HDTV's HDMI IN...

First of all, before I get to "system behavior problems" I have been experiencing, can someone confirm for me that this equipment is set up properly for passing high definition video AND audio from the player to the receiver and then on to the TV?
From Pg. 9, Section C "Connecting to an HDMI compatible television and HDMI compatible amplifier/receiver (emphasis added):"
You can connect the player to your HDMI compatible amplifier/receiver with an HDMI cable to enjoy digital surround sound along with high quality digital video. Using an additional HDMI cable, you can connect the amplifier/receiver to your HDMI compatible television.

I have the Panasonic's DIGITAL AUDIO OUTPUT menu selections all set to BITSTREAM except for the DOLBY DIGITAL PLUS/DOLBY TRUEHD output which I have set to PCM, because this player cannot pass bitstreamed TrueHD signals (which my Onkyo can decode) and so it must decode the track internally and send it as PCM...
Under "Audio," Pg. 22. The following applies to all Dolby Digital formats:

Select how to output the signal. If "Bitstream" is selected, the bitstream is output from the unit and the connected equipment decodes the signal. If "PCM" is selected, this unit decodes the signal and output it as 2 channel from DIGITAL AUDIO OUT terminal.
  • Bitstream: The bitstream signal of Dolby Digital is output.
  • PCM: Dolby Digital Plus or Dolby TrueHD PCM sound is output in 2 channels.
Note: Just above this they note that the PCM setting is only for "equipment not displaying the Dolby Digital logo." They apparently forgot to mention it for Plus and TrueHD, so the confusion is understandable. :) Obviously, no Dolby Digital format can be decoded with non-Dolby Digital equipment.

Given this scenario, are you SURE I do not need to set those "Speaker Settings" in the Panasonic Blu ray player? These are ONLY for analog out setup? I only ask so many times because I have been misled in so many other sites regarding this; many tell me that the speaker sizes MUST be set in this menu even though I'm connected via HDMI only so the decoded PCM tracks play back right as multichannel PCM to my receiver...
Example C on Pg. 9 under "Necessary Settings" (emphasis added):
If the speaker setup cannot be completed on the amplifier/receiver, change multi channel speaker settings by selecting "Multi -channel" in "Speaker" of "Connection" tab.

Under "Options (Underlined items are the factory presets") Pg. 23 (emphasis added):
Multi-channel: When using three or more speakers with equipment that cannot set the speaker settings. You can adjust the settings for speaker size, presence, channel balance and audio-delay.

Under "Changing the speaker setting to suit your speakers," Pg. 23 (emphasis added):
When connecting to an amplifier/receiver to enjoy multi-channel surround sound, use the following settings on this unit if they cannot be set on the amplifier/receiver.

Regards,
Wayne
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Re: My Onkyo 605 and its Working Relationship with the Panasonic

Okay, I think I’ve found what you need.

From Pg. 9, Section C "Connecting to an HDMI compatible television and HDMI compatible amplifier/receiver (emphasis added):"
You can connect the player to your HDMI compatible amplifier/receiver with an HDMI cable to enjoy digital surround sound along with high quality digital video. Using an additional HDMI cable, you can connect the amplifier/receiver to your HDMI compatible television.

Under "Audio," Pg. 22. The following applies to all Dolby Digital formats:

Select how to output the signal. If "Bitstream" is selected, the bitstream is output from the unit and the connected equipment decodes the signal. If "PCM" is selected, this unit decodes the signal and output it as 2 channel from DIGITAL AUDIO OUT terminal.
  • Bitstream: The bitstream signal of Dolby Digital is output.
  • PCM: Dolby Digital Plus or Dolby TrueHD PCM sound is output in 2 channels.
Note: Just above this they note that the PCM setting is only for "equipment not displaying the Dolby Digital logo." They apparently forgot to mention it for Plus and TrueHD, so the confusion is understandable. :) Obviously, no Dolby Digital format can be decoded with non-Dolby Digital equipment.

Example C on Pg. 9 under "Necessary Settings" (emphasis added):
If the speaker setup cannot be completed on the amplifier/receiver, change multi channel speaker settings by selecting "Multi -channel" in "Speaker" of "Connection" tab.

Under "Options (Underlined items are the factory presets") Pg. 23 (emphasis added):
Multi-channel: When using three or more speakers with equipment that cannot set the speaker settings. You can adjust the settings for speaker size, presence, channel balance and audio-delay.

Under "Changing the speaker setting to suit your speakers," Pg. 23 (emphasis added):
When connecting to an amplifier/receiver to enjoy multi-channel surround sound, use the following settings on this unit if they cannot be set on the amplifier/receiver.

Regards,
Wayne
Wayne,

While I fully appreciate you taking the time to analyze these manual descriptions, it kind of just regurgetated what I already knew...

The issue with what the MANUAL says about the channel settings is that they appear to be TOTALLY wrong -- it says if you're connected to equipment that can decode Dolby Digital, DTS, etc. to set the player's speaker outputs to 2 CHANNEL...but this is WRONG in that I can't get the multichannel PCM tracks to pass correctly if it's set to 2 CHANNEL, so MULTI CHANNEL is the correct setting here -- which I already knew (although confused about) -- but the thing is, under MULTI CHANNEL (which, according to the manual, again, is what I SHOULD NOT be using because I'm not using analog connections) I need to know WHAT TO SET THOSE SPEAKER SIZES TO in order for my decoded PCM TrueHD/uncompressed PCM tracks to pass correctly...
 

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Re: My Onkyo 605 and its Working Relationship with the Panasonic


The issue with what the MANUAL says about the channel settings is that they appear to be TOTALLY wrong -- it says if you're connected to equipment that can decode Dolby Digital, DTS, etc. to set the player's speaker outputs to 2 CHANNEL...but this is WRONG in that I can't get the multichannel PCM tracks
As I noted, the manual is indeed wrong about that. The correct setting is not "PCM" but "Bitstream." "PCM" is only for connection to equipment that doesn't include any Dolby Digital decoding.

Regards,
Wayne
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Re: My Onkyo 605 and its Working Relationship with the Panasonic

As I noted, the manual is indeed wrong about that. The correct setting is not "PCM" but "Bitstream." "PCM" is only for connection to equipment that doesn't include any Dolby Digital decoding.

Regards,
Wayne
No -- I'm not talking about what audio output to set the codecs to -- I'm talking about AT THE '10A's "SPEAKER OUTPUT SETTINGS" -- there's a choice of 2 CHANNEL or MULTI CHANNEL, and the manual is wrong about how to set this...

Yet I don't yet know, which was my original question, whether or not the SPEAKER SIZE SETTINGS in the multi channel setup of the player makes any difference because I'm connected via HDMI...
 

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Re: My Onkyo 605 and its Working Relationship with the Panasonic


It doesn't. A digital output is a digital output. Page 10 of the manual has a picture showing that the multi-channel outputs are for analog connections only (i.e. a separate cable for each channel), and they would go to corrosponding analog inputs on a receiver. Note the heading title, "Connecting to an amplifier/receiver (excluding HDMI connection).

Regards,
Wayne
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Re: My Onkyo 605 and its Working Relationship with the Panasonic

It doesn't. A digital output is a digital output. Page 10 of the manual has a picture showing that the multi-channel outputs are for analog connections only (i.e. a separate cable for each channel), and they would go to corrosponding analog inputs on a receiver. Note the heading title, "Connecting to an amplifier/receiver (excluding HDMI connection).

Regards,
Wayne
This is what I originally suspected, Wayne, but if you look at some tiresome, exhaustively prolonged forums on other sites regarding this "debate," you will find where many are arguing against this conclusion that "it doesn't matter;" I was even written to by someone on another site insisting that the information you gave me here was "incorrect" and that the speakers should ALL be on LARGE -- OF COURSE I did NOT use your name; I simply dropped your response into my reply there and said "I was told this...on another site..."

But are you sure these speaker sizes don't matter being that I'm connected with HDMI?

Thanks for all your help so far.
 

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Re: My Onkyo 605 and its Working Relationship with the Panasonic


Well, I found this morning in this thread that True HD and HDDTS only work with HDMI. Not sure at this point if that's relevant to this discusion or not, but FYI.

But are you sure these speaker sizes don't matter being that I'm connected with HDMI?
I don't believe I ever said that. What I said was that with HDMI, you don't set speaker sizes in the DVD player, because those settings are only for the analog outputs, not the digital outputs. Your manual says the same thing. With HDMI, optical or coaxial, all the speaker settings are done in the receiver, not the DVD player.

if you look at some tiresome, exhaustively prolonged forums on other sites regarding this "debate," you will find where many are arguing against this conclusion that "it doesn't matter;" I was even written to by someone on another site insisting that the information you gave me here was "incorrect"
I'm at a disadvantage not knowing what the scope of that discussion is, or why they say it matters, since it's all relevant to the type of equipment being used, how it's connected, etc. I'm basing my replies on your specific equipment, your specific connection scheme, and your manual.

Regards,
Wayne
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 · (Edited)
Re: My Onkyo 605 and its Working Relationship with the Panasonic

What I said was that with HDMI, you don't set speaker sizes in the DVD player, because those settings are only for the analog outputs, not the digital outputs. Your manual says the same thing. With HDMI, optical or coaxial, all the speaker settings are done in the receiver, not the DVD player.

...that's all I said about what you said...

:scratchhead:

At any rate, indeed, that's what I am talking about too...whether the speaker SIZES should be set in the player and if that MATTERS for HDMI; seems to be a great deal of confusion over all this...
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Okay Shackster Friends,

Perhaps I need to put the question in a bit more simpler terms, as it seems Sonnie has already taken care of editing the thread title down so it's more fitting and understandable, and Wayne has assisted to the best of his knowledge (and I thank him sincerely for that)...

As I stated originally...my Panasonic 'BD10A Blu ray deck is running HDMI OUT only for audio AND video to an Onkyo '605's HDMI IN; from there, a second HDMI cable is going from the '605's HDMI OUT to the HDMI IN of my Sony 50A2020 rear projection HDTV...that's it -- no other connections or cables...

Now, first of all, is this above description correct for sending audio and video out of the player, through the receiver (where it can decode the new codecs, etc.) and then out to my TV for display?

If so...

Under the Panasonic's SPEAKER SETTINGS menu, there is an option for 2 CHANNEL or MULTI CHANNEL...by selecting MULTI CHANNEL, a new screen then pops up and there are settings required for speaker sizes, distances, levels, etc. -- now, many have said these settings are ONLY for if you're connected through ANALOG from this player, which I'm not (only HDMI) so it doesn't matter in my case -- but I don't think this is necessarily true...

Let me further explain: I have the Panasonic set up so that Dolby TrueHD and uncompressed PCM soundtracks on Blu ray discs pass as LPCM tracks because this player cannot bitstream the new codecs like TrueHD...and so, PCM signals are passing to my Onkyo where the receiver reads "MULTICH" on the display, indicating, or so I have been told, that the BLU RAY PLAYER is doing the decoding instead of the receiver...if this is in fact so, do those settings in the player's MultiChannel speaker settings menu matter when playing decoded PCM tracks? Do the SIZES matter? Many have said leave the sizes on LARGE so the bass management is not "doubled" by the settings on my 605; some say it doesn't matter...

I just want the PCM tracks to pass correctly from the '10A to the '605, and I know those speaker settings at the player have something to do with it -- but again, I'm running HDMI ONLY, not analog...so should the speaker sizes be Small, Large, what? I'm running Polk bookshelves all around...

If anyone can please assist or lend some thoughts, I would appreciate it...
 

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Your receiver is accepting MultiChannel Linear PCM, so it is best to be sure the player is NOT applying any bass management or speaker distance compensation. Let the Onkyo receiver do it.

As a minor point the BD10 player does the decoding of any audio codec used (DD, DTS, TrueHD) and then outputs the audio on the HDMI connection as a digital LPCM signal. LPCM is not considered "encoded" (that is with a codec) but rather is the simpliest way (format) digital is transported on either HDMI or S/PDIF (coax or optical Toslink). But S/PDIF is only allowed to do two channels of LPCM.
 
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