Digm's must be one of the uglier speakers produced. What is up with all that treatment around the speakers?
Those things need to go back to the cosmetic dentist and get all the grill bling removed.

 

I actually like all of that . I think they look great

 

I like it personally, but with the grille on it's hidden anyway.

They are actually designed with the grille in mind from a sonic perspective. Pretty unique in that regard.

 

Thank you for the great write-up (I read the whole thing, no skipping).
I have a question regarding your crossover selections on the sub and in the AVR.

[SETUP]...and set crossovers according to my usual standard (80Hz on all mains, 100Hz on surrounds, and 80Hz on the sub with a 120Hz low-pass for LFE in the receiver).

Setting the crossover on the sub itself to 80Hz will start rolling off content above 80Hz.
Setting the AVR's LFE low-pass filter to 120Hz will send all of it's content 120Hz and below to the sub.

Won't those settings diminish the LFE content between 80Hz-120Hz?

Wouldn't it be more accurate to set both crossovers to 120Hz? ....Or if you didn't want the sub to play content above 80Hz, then both the sub and AVR could be set to 80Hz (with this setting the AVR should send any LFE content above 80Hz to the main speakers, correct?)?

I understand this is very nit-picky and I'm not criticizing, just learning how things work.

 

Dave can clarify, but I'm sure he bypassed the Sub's internal crossover and was referring to setting the crossover in the AVR on the sub channel.

 

Right, I thought I posted earlier today but I guess it didn't come across. In movie soundtracks the LFE content by definition can have content up to 120Hz, this is lost if your lowpass for LFE material is at 80 -- bass management handles the bass redirection for the mains and adds LFE into the sub preout. My Onkyo and a few other have a specific LPF of LFE setting that was actually added to compensate for some ~100Hz hum for certain situations, Audyssey recommends 120Hz for this and most receivers are set this way without you even knowing it.

 

In movie soundtracks the LFE content by definition can have content up to 120Hz, this is lost if your lowpass for LFE material is at 80 -- bass management handles the bass redirection for the mains and adds LFE into the sub preout.

So in the AVR if the LPF for the LFE channel is set to 80Hz, the LFE content above 80Hz will not be redirected to the mains (it is just lost)?

Also, how about setting the sub's crossover to 80Hz, won't that diminish the LFE content above 80Hz? (I apologize if you already answered this. If you did, I didn't understand)

 

Great Review, Dave! I've always been a fan of the paradigm brand speaker style, but never actually owned any. It's great to hear a comparison to the Rockets that you have since I am very familiar with the Rockets as well.

 

Great review , i heard most of this set minus the sub and i also went WoW , in did the price is a factor i would love to know if Paradigm would go the direct sales road how much would be the price ???

 

LPF of LFE is a poor misnomer from Onkyo, it has nothing to do with crossover. All it controls is what frequency the content in the LFE channel cuts off at, this is why it's a lowpass filter and not a crossover.

The 80Hz sub crossover just means any bass content destined for main channels classified as small that is below 80Hz goes to the subwoofer pre-out. This is in addition to LFE content sent to the same pre-out. LFE is a separate independent channel in surround mixes, and by spec can go from 0 - 120 Hz. Typically all modern AVRs maintain a 120 Hz lowpass for LFE, you just don't know it. How content in LFE from 80-120 Hz is managed is a bit more complex. Bass management does some interesting things to better integrate the sub and mains, one of these is combining LFE bass content with main channel bass content and sending it all to the subwoofer pre-out. Setting the lpf at 120 just ensures no lfe content gets lost instead of redirected to the appropriate place.

Example: A scene is playing in your favorite movie, John blows up a gas station. The explosion has content in the main 5 channels down to 55 Hz, the LFE or .1 channel has content down to 18Hz, but also some between 90 and 110 Hz. What happens?

All 55 to 80 Hz content in the main channels is redirected to your subwoofer per the 80 Hz crossover. All LFE content is still sent to your subwoofer, including 18-120 Hz material, provided your sub doesn't have its own lowpass filter (this is why guides tell you to set this knowledge as high as possible). The vast majority of film mixes don't have LFE above 80 Hz, but this setting prevents lost information just in case.


Net result: smoother 70-130 Hz response in mixes that have this content, and many confused people. Onkyo shouldn't have made this option available but they did, setting it to 120 is the only correct setting according to film mix specifications and Audyssey.

 

All it controls is what frequency the content in the LFE channel cuts off at

I can't be the only one who thinks that this sounds like a bad idea. Why would I want a setting that essentially tosses away data never to be seen again?

I certainly can understand that some subs might have trouble with 120Hz; but in that case I'd really want that signal to go *somewhere*(and besides: that would be simple enough to filter at the sub itself; why put it in the AVR?)

 

It's a terrible idea to expose the setting - again most AVR's set the LPF for LFE to 120 and you're none the wiser. I'm not sure how various bass management systems vary and possibly even redirect LFE to mains, but in the case of Onkyo and my receiver in particular this is how it works.

I actually read somewhere that Onkyo included that option specifically to cure a hum issue "bug" - so it could be LPF'ed at 80. What's worse is they labelled 80Hz with a THX logo so most unsuspecting consumers will think that's the ideal setting. Realistically all LFE goes up to 120 and you don't need to think about it, as Audyssey and bass management worry about it for you. The key difference here is that the default setting actually harms your sonics.

 

In every setup i've used the LPF is usually linked between the mains and subwoofer.

This seems completely backwards to what i'm reading in here, and for that reason i want to step in and say wait what!?

If the reciever is set to lfe @ 80hz, it means above 80 is redirected to mains, usually at a 12-24db/octave filter. If you set it for 100hz, that marks the start of the crossover point. The mains are affected by this as it also sets the high pass for the mains.

If you set the filter at 80hz on the sub, yes you can stack your filters. but you shouldn't lose content if the mains are set to cross over at 80hz. (this filter is usually set at the same time by the reciever) You should only lose content if your mains are starting at 120 and the lfe is crossed at 80. Which shouldnt be possible based on the settings of the onkyo and other recievers i've had experience with.

PS. Cut-off frequency IS what a crossover is designed to do. the difference being, you are acting like a brick wall filter vs a standard, slower rolloff.

 

While your statement should hold true (and does in most receivers), this is not how it works with these Onkyo receivers. Remember that LFE and bass are different things in surround mixes, LFE is a discreet channel, while bass is content in any channel other than LFE below your crossover point - anything below your subwoofer crossover point @ 80Hz for example will be redirected to the sub, not the other way around. So the pre-out is actually outputting LFE + bass, and not just "bass".

There's a massive discussion on it, but if you're curious here's a link:http://bit.ly/pbM5Km

 

I think people are caught up in whats what.

LFE and BASS are somewhat interchangeable terms, and the reciever makes no differentiation unless on a dedicated lfe track.

When you are listening with a dedicated LFE, what i described is true. Anything on the LFE track that plays above the LFE setting is redirected to the mains. Anything below is left on the LFE channel. and any bass from the main channels is redirected to the LFE below the crossover point as well...

It wouldn't make any sense for them to not have this work as a single function as each one correlates with the other.

When listening to a 2 channel source, the LFE is "upmixed" from the frequencies of the LFE setting and lower, all channels will redirect bass to the LFE below the crossover point, and the mains will take it from there up. The mains will not try to play below LFE, and the LFE will not continue on to infinity upwards. (Often the low pass filter on the subwoofer is useless, because the reciever itself handles this.)

The LFE may have content in its dedicated track up to 120hz, but that is redirected onto the mains above the LFE setting. (usually 80hz) Meaning that the 80-120hz content should be more coming from your mains, not your subwoofer.

I still don't see how from an engineering standpoint, that it makes any sense to have it work the way you describe.
Also. 80hz is the THX reference crossover, as after 80hz localization of the sub is really easy.

 

It "should" work as you described but it doesn't - they are the only ones who have done something like this that I am aware of, and while it's difficult it is still technically feasible. If you glance at the near endless debate on this subject in the link I provided you'll probably see many reactions similar to your own, I'm simply explaining why this receiver has a crossover point and an LPF of LFE as independent settings. Regardless of how much sense you think it makes, this is how the engineers at Onkyo did it, and if you want to discuss the why, i'm afraid you'll have to take that up with them.

 

Well sir, you just saved me a butt-ton of hassle to find out that these onkyo recievers are built with absolutely no intelligence in mind. I very much so don't regret waiting on my purchase of a new receiver. If I had one of those and that was the case i'd be very upset.

That's just not cool. Essentially what you're saying to me is that there is no high pass on the mains? Meaning you'd have to build one for speakers that don't have a high-pass built in, or use additional equipment to protect your speakers from the "bass"? That really doesn't make any sense, but if its the case, I will not buy Onkyo.

 

Sorry if I confused you, I always have the lpf disabled or maxed out on any sub. I specially set the lpf of LFE setting so 80-120 Hz content would not be lost and would go to the sub.

 

Thanks.
That's how I figured you set it.

 

Hi,

Thanks for the very nice review!

I have a question about the placement of the ADP-590.
What is the best location?

Regards

 

The owner's manuals shows 70-110 degrees from the front, directly to the left and right of the seating position. No comment on height. They also show a corner and back placement option.

 

After a lot of experimenting, I found the ADP's had the best sound directly parallel to the seating position and about 2 feet above ear level - I couldn't put them any lower unfortunately.

 

I am replacing an old set of Aperion bookshelves with a 100 and a CC690. I have what I think is a good subwoofer that I would like to keep. Here are the specs. Do you think it is worth keeping?

Specifications:
Frequency Response -3dB -- 27Hz - 180Hz, -6dB -- 25Hz - 200Hz
Impedance
Sensitivity
Recommended Power
Amplifier Power 500W RMS
Tweeter
Midrange
Woofer 10", High-excursion Aluminum Driver with Dual 10” Passive Radiators
Driver Configuration One Active & Two Passive
Enclosure Type Sealed and Internally Braced 1" HDF
Dimensions 15"H x 13.5" W x 13.5" D (with feet attached)
Weight 44 Lbs

 

Posted this on another site, maybe y'all can offer additional opinions.



I listened to some studio 100s yesterday. They were setup in a large room with several living room layouts in it and no wall behind the speakers. Rep said they were doing a lot of construction on their main rooms. The mids and highs sounded great but bass was lacking. Guessing it was b/c of no wall behind them? Rep said I made the best demo anyone had brought in there and would give me $10 off if he could keep it. Pretty sure he said 10% the first time but laughed when I corrected him. Told him to keep it since I could make another. It'll be +1yr before I can do anything but he quoted me $3600. Does this sound right to y'all? Seems high to me. $1300 for cc590. Opinions?

Whenever I'm able to upgrade I want to just do it right the first time. So would the studio 60 or even the 20 be a better buy since I have a sub? Or is buying a full range tower pointless? I like the idea of just running 2ch for music but I know it's not necessary. Actually, I often listen in 2ch on my Hsu HB-1s and very rarely feel I'm missing out on anything. The Paradigm's mids and highs were definitely more open and seemed to play with much less effort. The brand has always had an allure to me because they always review well and are basically supposed to be the sh!t. When I'd read about them or see them in a store I'd think "Mmmmm, Paradigms." (think Homer drooling) I definitely want to hear them again in a properly set up room. Guess I'll just have to check out some more dealers since I have plenty of time to look and no money to buy anytime soon. They'd be going in the den (26x15) on the long wall.

About 60/40 movies/music.

 

The only hang up I have with the 60s is that I know I'd want the cc590 (and 20s for surrounds) which has larger drivers. Wouldn't this negatively affect timber matching across the front?

Originally Posted by sandman922

no the cc590 is the recommended center for the studio 60s they will sound great together. you could even use the monitor series for surround duties if you want .

How are the 60s with 2ch? Do they NEED a sub? Or is the extension better enough in the 100s that it would make it worth it to save for them?

 

Dave,

Quote "80Hz on all mains, 100Hz on surrounds, and 80Hz on the sub with a 120Hz low-pass for LFE in the receiver"

OK I have to go back to this statement as many asked about that and all your answers did not answer their question - instead they ware explanations of functionality of LPS in AVR.

So let's break this down...

- 80Hz on all mains:
That means crossover was set to 80Hz for FL C FR. It's clear.

- 100Hz on surrounds
That means crossover was set to 100Hz for RL and RR. I think this is clear also.

- and 80Hz on the sub
This suggests that you have set sub LPF to 80Hz (or maybe it is HPF ? but It would not make any sens if You ware using only LFE signal to power the sub)

- with a 120Hz low-pass for LFE in the receiver
OK this clear - LPF in Onkyo was set to 120Hz ( I assume 120Hz was the max You can set)







Now the "and 80Hz on the sub" is what confuses people because you have already mentioned that mains are crossed at 80hz and LPF for LFE is set to 120Hz. Than why would you limit yourself directly on sub-woofer to 80Hz ? This would make you loose information from surrounds that ware set to 100Hz and all that is below 100Hz will be sent to sub-woofer will be reduced to 80Hz resulting in loss od information between 80Hz and 100Hz. Same goes for LFE channel - all explosions etc. that is designed for LFE only and is exceeding 80Hz will be lost regardless to LPF set to 120Hz in receiver - all that because you have set you sub to 80Hz only.





Also for people saying that 120Hz LPF does not make sense. Well LFE channel is for low FQ only - I don't think anything on mixed for this channel would go over 100Hz even. Also if all speakers are crossed below 120Hz ? What difference does it make ?
Only situation this setting would be harmful is when one of you speakers is set to more than 120Hz - then you would loose some information. I think that's obvious.


So the real question here is was that typing mistake of you have really limited your sub-woofer to 80Hz while having surrounds set to 100Hz.

 

Makes sense to me.
You have to remember that the 100Hz and below is sent to the Mains not the Sub. Then the Mains will send 80hz and below to the sub. The 80hz crossover on the Sub means it will only play sub 80Hz stuff from the other speakers.
LFE is a standalone channel for the Sub only and that information will play 120Hz and down. The reason for this is that sometimes noise can leak into this channel and create noise. I had a large pair of bookshelves playing my LFE for a while and I would hear high frequency stuff from time to time mostly noise and static.

 

I have to agree on the lfe/120. It doesn't care what the crossover is set at whatsoever. However I've never seen or heard that bass from other channels (below 100hz in your example) goes to the mains. It will go to the subs. Maybe I misunderstand your post?

 

Blacklighning,
For your comment "...The 80hz crossover on the Sub means it will only play sub 80Hz stuff from the other speakers," I assume you are referring to the crossover for the sub which is adjusted in the AVR. Because adjusting the crossover "on the sub" to 80hz will limit the sub to play freq only below 80hz, no matter where the signal originated from.

And, like you mention, I always understood that the AVR crossovers for the surround signals will send that bass to the main speakers first, then the AVR crossover for the mains will send that bass to the LFE output.