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Re: 'Pigment' Free Gray- a New Gray

What's the best substrate to roll on for that size screen?
 

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Discussion Starter #42
Re: 'Pigment' Free Gray- a New Gray

You can do a 100" diagonal screen with many substrates. The problem comes into play for larger screens that are over 100" because that exceeds the 4'x8' size of the typical sheet. You can eek out 100" because it is actually 49" wide, but that will be using the entire width of the sheet as the screen height, so you won't be able to attach it to a border. What most people do in that case is mount the substrate to the wall and then build the frame around it.

If that is the plan, it is usually easier and cheaper to just paint the wall itself. If the wall is uneven, that can be remedied too. Here is one way to do it.

Other options would be to use painter's canvas or BOC and paint that. Right now I am working on a tutorial to make a quick and easy BOC screen that can be used as is or painted.

Unless you want to back light your screen like some people have done, or make a 'floating' screen... or if there is a reason you can't use the wall (like you rent and can't paint the wall itself), using a wall as your screen surface is probably the easiest and most economical way to go.

If you go with a substrate, 1/8" hard board will work, but it is a bit flimsy and bows unless it is attached to a frame or directly to the wall. Laminate will too though. 1/4" is much stiffer, but the weight is also much more. Some people have used MDF and with that the weight really starts to skyrocket.

An alternative if you are going to be painting would be a sheet of sanitary panel like Parkland Polywall. Many have used that as either a white screen as is, or as a substrate to paint. The key is to make sure it is a smooth surface. You don't specifically need Parkland if you are going to paint. Most home renovation centers carry this between $10-$15 a sheet. Again, make sure it is smooth, some are textured, but the back side is usually smooth. Prime it since it is a plastic material. That will make sure your screen paint has something to bite into and adhere well and will help prevent peeling down the road.

Here is another relatively inexpensive and light weight option... paneling. I have used smooth surface paneling scraps as test screen panels and they have worked out well. Most paneling has grooves though to simulate the slotted tongue and groove look, but the backside is always smooth. I have to give a disclaimer though, I've never used paneling for a full size screen but I don't see why it wouldn't work and be just as light weight as any other plastic substrate.

Pretty much if you are going to paint, anything will work if it is smooth and prepped right. The only restriction is the screen size. If you only need a 100" diagonal or less screen, there are more viable options than you could ever use... if you want a larger screen, finding substrates over 4' wide can be difficult or even impossible without special ordering. Depending on where you live I should say.

DW really is an outstanding screen though. Any particular reasons why you may be changing your mind from using it?
 

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Re: 'Pigment' Free Gray- a New Gray

I was just thinking... my screen is 97" diagonal, which means it should be 48" high x 85" wide. I can paint something and mount it inside my border trim, thereby eliminating part of that border trim depth on the inside edge.

So yeah... what would be the best material to paint... 1/2" MDF maybe? I could paint it and then hang it.
 

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Discussion Starter #45
Re: 'Pigment' Free Gray- a New Gray

Very soon.

We ran into some trouble with availability of the main ingredient and had to find a suitable replacement. Jim found one and the spectro tests and spectral curve is one of the flattest we have seen in anything so far. Then we had to find a white base that was also neutral or closer than other whites out there and wouldn't skew it too far out. Now we're doing some more test panels and going into the final stage. We just did not think it was responsible to jump the gun and present something and then have to tell people they couldn't get the most important ingredient. (It was discontinued, so it was worse than being a regional item) Or worse, present something and then after some in depth testing discover there is a major push or problem with it and have to tell people not to use it or make a change right after presenting it.

So things started out on a rush of excitement, but then we stepped back and had to make sure this was something that people could get and make, as well as verify the specs and performance. All in all it may seem like a long time, but this was introduced at the beginning of October and now we're almost done. That's a much faster pace than it would take a commercial endeavor as well as most other DIY applications, many which still undergo major changes even shortly after being introduced.

Anyone that knows me knows I am pretty solid on things. The only change in the laminate screen world is that we took some new readings and found a better option than Fashion Grey, not that FG is bad, we just found something that has a better color balance and we formally have said that. It took a year though to dethrone FG and anyone that has used it for a screen will still have a great screen.

The same philosophy goes with the OTS neutral and near neutral grays. Since they were introduced, the list of identified and tested neutrals has not wavered or gone through monthly mix adjustments. They were solid last year and are solid this year, the only difference is a few more were added to the list from different manufacturers.

PFG will be the same. When it is unveiled in the next few weeks it will be a finished DIY application and I do not foresee any changes being made to it a month later or even a year later. People wanted something more advanced so that was researched. After this, we plan on working on optical coatings (actually that work is already underway) as well as making frames and borders easier and more professional looking.

Like I said, 2007 has been a great year and 2008 will be better and more interesting!
 

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Discussion Starter #46
Re: 'Pigment' Free Gray- a New Gray

I was just thinking... my screen is 97" diagonal, which means it should be 48" high x 85" wide. I can paint something and mount it inside my border trim, thereby eliminating part of that border trim depth on the inside edge.

So yeah... what would be the best material to paint... 1/2" MDF maybe? I could paint it and then hang it.
MDF is wickedly heavy. It will work but to me is heavier than it needs to be, especially the 1" thick stuff. For a 97" screen there are many options, but from talking to you your biggest hurdle is getting that border off that was put on with Liquid Nails! I have done some wood work and saw the wood break before the Liquid Nails gave way. That's some pretty strong and permanant stuff.

The screen I will be making as a tutorial for the PFG thread will be a cloth screen that is painted. I will be using BOC, but anything that can be painted can be used, canvas, MDF, 1/4" hardboard, sanitary panels, even paneling could work. Over 100" diagonal though is when the options start to get slim and fast. Sonnie when you're ready to change screens I don't think you'll have a problem getting a substrate in that size.
 
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Re: 'Pigment' Free Gray- a New Gray

DW really is an outstanding screen though. Any particular reasons why you may be changing your mind from using it?
The truth is I have not tried the DW as it is still in the box. My PJ is a Infocus 7210 and since it is bright without an iris I was hoping to get better PQ with some ambient light on while watching sports. My HT room has dark walls, ceiling and floor.
 

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Re: 'Pigment' Free Gray- a New Gray

Here's the reflectance curve of our tested product:



I (not wbassett or cynical2 - they're much more realistic than I :bigsmile:) was really hoping to have something done or closer to being done by Christmas. Unfortunately just about everything went wrong around the house this last week and I've just about gotten my head back above the water! :wits-end: :hissyfit:

Tradewinds - you may want to keep that DW around as from what little (not nearly enough testing yet) I've seen of a new topcoat we're trying out, it will need a bright white screen as a base. ;)

Sonnie and others waiting... sorry for this prolonged delay but we want to cover all the bases on this and not release something on wild claims with no proof or science behind it. I think we're shooting for early to mid January now - barring any unforeseen events such as I experienced in the last week.

Your patience is appreciated! :T

mech
 
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Re: 'Pigment' Free Gray- a New Gray

Tradewinds - you may want to keep that DW around as from what little (not nearly enough testing yet) I've seen of a new topcoat we're trying out, it will need a bright white screen as a base. ;)
Thanks for the heads up and continued hard work to get this out Mech. I'll mount the DW if my HT room is completed sooner than the PF will be read and will take it back down and try but the final PFG when the final version is out. Happy Holidays if you don't get much time to post in the next few weeks.

BTW - If the PFG has a 0.4 gain and it is a grey paint, how would a white base help if it will be covered up? I could understand if it was translucent (not sure if that is the right word, I mean like transparent).
 

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Re: 'Pigment' Free Gray- a New Gray

Thanks for the heads up and continued hard work to get this out Mech. I'll mount the DW if my HT room is completed sooner than the PF will be read and will take it back down and try but the final PFG when the final version is out. Happy Holidays if you don't get much time to post in the next few weeks.

BTW - If the PFG has a 0.4 gain and it is a grey paint, how would a white base help if it will be covered up? I could understand if it was translucent (not sure if that is the right word, I mean like transparent).
TW, I'm not sure where you got that it has a gain of 0.4?? If it's from the spectral reflectance curve, that's not gain on the vertical axis.

Also, there is always a bit of light passing through a couple of layers of paint...so it's best to have a properly prepared substrate (e.g. white).
 
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Re: 'Pigment' Free Gray- a New Gray

got it. My mistake. Thanks for clarifying.
 

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Re: 'Pigment' Free Gray- a New Gray

BTW - If the PFG has a 0.4 gain and it is a grey paint, how would a white base help if it will be covered up? I could understand if it was translucent (not sure if that is the right word, I mean like transparent).
I have yet to do gain measurements of anything yet but if I was to hazard a guess, and a guess it would be, I'd say it would be around 1 or greater. But that is a guess!

The topcoat that we're experimenting with is a topcoat. The one currently on the table is very dark and that's at a 2oz pfg ingredient to 32oz poly. It is translucent. But that's gonna be much further down the line.

mech
 

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Re: 'Pigment' Free Gray- a New Gray

Yes that is a spectral reflectance curve. Although there's not much curve to it! ;) What does that mean? It means that this particular ingredient reflects all the colors equally. Why is that important? In order to view the movie or content the way the director intended your screen should be reflecting colors back the way the projector emits them. There have been numerous paint mixes and topcoats that have utilized mica. Mica which is purchased at craft stores and is generally meant for crafts. We've shown here at the Shack that this mica is not necessarily a good thing. It creates quite the color shift. We did an experiment utilizing a pearlizing medium topcoat over True Value Winter Mountain. This was one coat at 2oz pearlizing medium to 32oz poly. Here are the curves for that.

Winter Mountain alone:



Winter Mountain with Pearlizing medium topcoat (one coat of the topcoat - usually it's recommended to do two! :raped:)



mech
 

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Discussion Starter #55
Re: 'Pigment' Free Gray- a New Gray

BTW - If the PFG has a 0.4 gain and it is a grey paint, how would a white base help if it will be covered up? I could understand if it was translucent (not sure if that is the right word, I mean like transparent).
Actually there were no gain tests done yet, so we can't say what the gain is. I will step out on a limb and say it's much higher than .4. The aluminum (at least in my test panels) makes it a much brighter screen than you'd expect from something this dark. It is definitely at least a full shade darker than Gray Screen, but just as bright, possibly brighter. I will be completely fair though and say this isn't a magical super high gain screen. I say that because the viewing cone still looks to be very wide, and as we know, viewing cone is inversely proportional to gain, as gain increases viewing cone decreases. My best 'guess' (and until we get actual readings, that's all this is) would be it's at least a 1.0 gain or around there.
 

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Discussion Starter #56
Re: 'Pigment' Free Gray- a New Gray

We have to get a tree this weekend, and then I have to track down some cross brace tabs, I am hoping to get at least the base coat sprayed this weekend (or Monday, I took a day off). :)
 

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Re: 'Pigment' Free Gray- a New Gray

Some pretty impressive curves there!!! Any recent progress? I know it's difficult with the holidays, but I'm really impressed by what I see so far!
 

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Re: 'Pigment' Free Gray- a New Gray

Some pretty impressive curves there!!! Any recent progress? I know it's difficult with the holidays, but I'm really impressed by what I see so far!
Yes. We've learned what not to use! :gah: Getting closer to learning what to use.

We've (should really be 'I've' as I think Bill already knew this and Jim more than likely did as well) also learned that you cannot take a non neutral paint and try and mix it up to remedy a 'push'. For example, you mix a couple things together and get a consistent drop in the reds, greens, and blues. You find a base to compensate for this and it does nothing but make things worse. We've experimented with this twice now and it is a no go! Bill has explained here what is required in order to get a neutral gray. It's a very tall order and one in which I think we've proven to ourselves over the last week or so that even the knowledgeable need to be humbled sometimes. And Lord knows I've been humbled these last few days! :hide:

We are still plugging away, we are right on track, and I hope we'll have something soon. The main thing we're waiting on now it seems is for me to have some time to putz with it. :dunno:

mech
 

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Re: 'Pigment' Free Gray- a New Gray

Yep, we knew that it doesn't make sense to mix a non-neutral with a neutral to get a neutral...

Unfortunately...to tie this post to the new thread mech created together...this was predicated by another result that didn't (and still doesn't) make sense to us. We mixed two neutrals and got a non-neutral.

So, we need a bit more experimentation to settle on the best base possible....

And, yes, I fully take the blame for the failed non-neutral + neutral experiment... :hide:

One really positive thing that came out of it is that Lowe's mixed a non-Valspar color for that experiment, based on their computer database, and nailed it. That gives us confidence moving forward that we can go to them and have them create almost any color, and it will be accurate (even if it's not their own color). Obviously, it's only one data point...but it's a start. Over time, we'll come to understand the robustness/accuracy of their system more and more.
 

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Re: 'Pigment' Free Gray- a New Gray

Thanks for the update. Looking forward to improving results as you go forward!!!
 
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