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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey guys

I am running
58" plasma
Xbox one
2 Onkyo TX Nr636s to 14 speakers
2 crown Xls 2500 to 3 subwoofers
Quiet guys cooling fans with 4 2 1/2" fans
Room transfer fan to cool audio closest
Direct tv genie runs hot
Ethernet splitter

Couple surge protectors running it front outlet

2 Aperion s8. Subwoofers surge protector rear outlet . Thinking of replacing with another crown Xls 2502 and diy subwoofers

I am thinking its time for a power conditioner for some of my components .

Inexpensive reconditions would be great
 

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adequate power supply is better than conditioning. Most AV equipment has internal power supplies that filter out much of the line noise but feeding all of your AV gear off one circuit is usually not the best setups due to power consumption and voltage drop and/or exceeding safe capacity of the circuit(s).
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Hey follow home theater junkies ,

So I bought a Panamax 5300 ex power conditioner . It solved the ground noise I got from my subwoofers at really low volume . A ten outlets were not enough . I focus all my audio on the Panamax. . Then plugged the cooling fans and tv , direct tv into a good quality surge protector .

I think when you are running as many components as I am . A power conditioner is needed .

Thank you all for your input
 

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I've been using Furmans for years... in fact, I somehow ended up with an extra when I reconfigured some stuff. Sold it to a friend, reconfigured again, and STILL had an extra. Dirt cheap, and they do the job.
 

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adequate power supply is better than conditioning. Most AV equipment has internal power supplies that filter out much of the line noise but feeding all of your AV gear off one circuit is usually not the best setups due to power consumption and voltage drop and/or exceeding safe capacity of the circuit(s).
I must say that I read a lot about the electricity, voltage, watt etc. theory. I am neither an electrician nor a scientific. So I do not understand all the subtleties in my readings.

The scientific facts state that cables make no differences especially because good audio gears have internal devices that protect the circuits from electron-bla-bla bad thing (!). I refer to , among others, many instructive posts from Tonyvdb, Lumen Talley and many others here. And I trust there advises. It is why I was (and partly still am) a cable atheist. Some people elsewhere say that cable are snake oil !

But if sometimes my ears (or my brain) trick me, it rarely happens at this level of improvement. I know that because with REW I can see a change that I hear and see a change that I don’t.

In my case (see the thread “I was a cable atheist” that I posted recently), REW does not show big changes ( if so maybe more related to little mic placement differences) but, what I hear is so more clean, detailed etc that I cannot tell that it is placebo.

When I plugged out the power cable of the receiver from the surge protector to plug it into the wall outlet it was only for a practical reason for only 10 minutes or so. During this time laps I hypocritically put a cd of music. And I stopped instantly what I was doing to double checked. What was happening, what I was hearing, was totally unexpected. Better sound, better bass, cleaner SS&I etc. This was not placebo: it was completely not foreseen from my part. The change in the connection was not made with the intention to hear something. And the change was the one and only changes all other things remaining the same.

It is why I decided to try a cable (shielded,good copper, hand made costly but not crazy expensives) with IEC to the power (same caracteristics) bar and a cable from the bar to the receiver. And there was another big improvement; it was better than directly in the outlet.
(And I do not talk about the change (more subtle) in the image of the tv when I plugged it into the power bar: the whites and the contrast improvements are noticeable too)

For me, it continues to be difficult to reconcile the fact that the wire in the wall (from the main entrance to the outlet) cost nothing, to say in comparison of the cost of the 2 cables (2 meters each) and the multi-outlet bar that I bought. I cannot explain why the electric signal in the wall suddenly becomes ‘’good-er” in those power cables before the receiver.

It is not logical.

So there is my question: how to scientifically explain what I hear? Or am I fool?:coocoo: (Don’t ask to my wife, please !)

P.S.: I shared my experience elsewhere; I received a lot of sarcasms.:crying2: I did not care to share my point of view there. I feel better to be a fool here than there ! :smile:
 

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I must say that I read a lot about the electricity, voltage, watt etc. theory. I am neither an electrician nor a scientific. So I do not understand all the subtleties in my readings.

The scientific facts state that cables make no differences especially because good audio gears have internal devices that protect the circuits from electron-bla-bla bad thing (!). I refer to , among others, many instructive posts from Tonyvdb, Lumen Talley and many others here. And I trust there advises. It is why I was (and partly still am) a cable atheist. Some people elsewhere say that cable are snake oil !

But if sometimes my ears (or my brain) trick me, it rarely happens at this level of improvement. I know that because with REW I can see a change that I hear and see a change that I don’t.

In my case (see the thread “I was a cable atheist” that I posted recently), REW does not show big changes ( if so maybe more related to little mic placement differences) but, what I hear is so more clean, detailed etc that I cannot tell that it is placebo.

When I plugged out the power cable of the receiver from the surge protector to plug it into the wall outlet it was only for a practical reason for only 10 minutes or so. During this time laps I hypocritically put a cd of music. And I stopped instantly what I was doing to double checked. What was happening, what I was hearing, was totally unexpected. Better sound, better bass, cleaner SS&I etc. This was not placebo: it was completely not foreseen from my part. The change in the connection was not made with the intention to hear something. And the change was the one and only changes all other things remaining the same.

It is why I decided to try a cable (shielded,good copper, hand made costly but not crazy expensives) with IEC to the power (same caracteristics) bar and a cable from the bar to the receiver. And there was another big improvement; it was better than directly in the outlet.
(And I do not talk about the change (more subtle) in the image of the tv when I plugged it into the power bar: the whites and the contrast improvements are noticeable too)

For me, it continues to be difficult to reconcile the fact that the wire in the wall (from the main entrance to the outlet) cost nothing, to say in comparison of the cost of the 2 cables (2 meters each) and the multi-outlet bar that I bought. I cannot explain why the electric signal in the wall suddenly becomes ‘’good-er” in those power cables before the receiver.

It is not logical.

So there is my question: how to scientifically explain what I hear? Or am I fool?:coocoo: (Don’t ask to my wife, please !)

P.S.: I shared my experience elsewhere; I received a lot of sarcasms.:crying2: I did not care to share my point of view there. I feel better to be a fool here than there ! :smile:
Your brain can be easily tricked. It's best to listen for 2 weeks straight one way then move to another way. Give your brain time to relax.

As far as cables being snake oil... I use Belden cable which is pretty standard stuff. It works. I won't try anything more expensive simply because I don't have the time/patience or money.

BUT... what I preach about AC feeder sizing/voltage drop/ampacity on your 120V ac circuits to your AV equipment is true.... 110% scientifically proven true. This is not really an audible thing like #12awg vs. #8... it's more of a do you want to have adequately sized feeders for your ampacity needs vs. controlled voltage drop percentage and NEC requirements... although NEC never requires anything on voltage drop... it's merely a recommendation for a safety aspect.
 

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What I see in threads like this is a lot of generalizations. And they should be taken as such. The only correct answer to any of these questions is "it depends." You have to start with the basic principles, which many of the afforementioned assumptions are correct on. But in complex systems (dual meaning here, of course) there may be factors that corrupt those assumptions. In home theater and audio systems, there are often many connected components, many power supplies of varying design and quality, and many connections to outside systems. The result is that there are lots of ways that noise can get into a system. While my consistent mantra is the same as many here, that power conditioning is often a waste of time, there are many cases where it does settle some noise in a system. It might be from mutiple pathways like ground loops or EMI or noisy switching supplies backfeeding noise into a line or external line noise, or who knows what. Many times, with good quality shieled cables, good grounding practice, reasonable wire dress, and minimizing cable lengths, you can get a quiet system with no conditioner. Sometimes, just adding such a device is a good patch on careless system design, or it could be a solution when there are trade offs that you can't avoid.

My suggestion is always to follow best practices first and use basic surge suppression. When that is not sufficient, however, sometimes a power conditioner can be useful. But, start with single point grounding on the electrical system and connected signal sources. Minimize connections to external systems. Keep wire runs short. Keep distance between a.c. cords and signal lines. Cross at right angles when possible. Connect to the same circuit when possible. Use good quality shielded cables. Mostly, connections to other systems over a distance and improper grounding are the biggest problems.

Then there are the psychological variables. If you think you hear a difference, then whether it really exists or not is perhaps irrelevant. Those of us who want to understand the technology better will always ask why, but at some point we all just end up either enjoying our systems or not. Even the most cynical and curious among us ultimately end up with an experience. If that experience is improved by cracking your knuckles before adjusting your volume, or having your cables processed breathed upon by the hyper cooled breath of your favorite cable guru, then go for it. Just expect to be asked for the logic and physics behind it...
 

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What I see in threads like this is a lot of generalizations. And they should be taken as such. The only correct answer to any of these questions is "it depends." You have to start with the basic principles, which many of the afforementioned assumptions are correct on. But in complex systems (dual meaning here, of course) there may be factors that corrupt those assumptions. In home theater and audio systems, there are often many connected components, many power supplies of varying design and quality, and many connections to outside systems. The result is that there are lots of ways that noise can get into a system. While my consistent mantra is the same as many here, that power conditioning is often a waste of time, there are many cases where it does settle some noise in a system. It might be from mutiple pathways like ground loops or EMI or noisy switching supplies backfeeding noise into a line or external line noise, or who knows what. Many times, with good quality shieled cables, good grounding practice, reasonable wire dress, and minimizing cable lengths, you can get a quiet system with no conditioner. Sometimes, just adding such a device is a good patch on careless system design, or it could be a solution when there are trade offs that you can't avoid.

My suggestion is always to follow best practices first and use basic surge suppression. When that is not sufficient, however, sometimes a power conditioner can be useful. But, start with single point grounding on the electrical system and connected signal sources. Minimize connections to external systems. Keep wire runs short. Keep distance between a.c. cords and signal lines. Cross at right angles when possible. Connect to the same circuit when possible. Use good quality shielded cables. Mostly, connections to other systems over a distance and improper grounding are the biggest problems.

Then there are the psychological variables. If you think you hear a difference, then whether it really exists or not is perhaps irrelevant. Those of us who want to understand the technology better will always ask why, but at some point we all just end up either enjoying our systems or not. Even the most cynical and curious among us ultimately end up with an experience. If that experience is improved by cracking your knuckles before adjusting your volume, or having your cables processed breathed upon by the hyper cooled breath of your favorite cable guru, then go for it. Just expect to be asked for the logic and physics behind it...

Excellent. Totally agreed! You are one the "many others " I was thinking of ! I think that what happens to me is that I applied some of those "basic principles" that you are talking about and I am getting the results. Good shielded cables, good grounding practice confirmed, reasonnable wire dress=no power conditonner needed and good sound.
 

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My experience is that for the majority, sticking to best practices yields good results. Maybe even the vast majority, but it is often inconvenient to do so and patches like power conditioners on less than ideal installations often seem to work well enough that they become deemed essential.
 
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