[Ares]

I have seen this on another forum and no one answered the question it goes as follows

Pioneer Vsx-21txh power consumption 400 watts with 110wpc

Denon 2310ci power consumption 708 watts with 105wpc

Onkyo TX-SR707 power consumption 720 watts with 100wpc

now my question is it seems as power consumption goes up watts per channel go down, pioneer seems to get more wpc with less power consumption are the pioneer numbers possible or are the other 2 just inefficient. any thoughts on this.

 

[tonyvdb]

Some Pioneer receivers are using a new amplifier called ICE basically they use a digital amp. Some like the sound some do not. The others are still fairly close in power usage/watts.

 

[Ares]

to my understanding this pioneer doesn't use the ICE amps those are reserved for their higher end models.

 

[tonyvdb]

There can be some more efficient designs but I would say that the receiver simply does not have as much omph as the others. The power has to come from somewhere.

 

[Ares]

So is it possible that it can't deliver the 110wpc as promised.

 

[tonyvdb]

The best thing to do is check out a good review site on the receivers, some will do bench tests to see what they really output all channels driven. Most only put out half of what they are rated for with all 7 channels going Onkyo is an exception. There mid to upper end receivers are able to do much better.

 

[Ares]

I have tried to find reviews of the pioneer vsx-21txh can't find any only the higher end models seem to have reviews right now. it seems to me like we are the only 2 on this forum so far today because I haven't heard from anyone else on either of the 2 topics I have posted today I would like have more people join in on the fun.

 

[lcaillo]

The 400W cannot be continous with all 7 channels driven to 110W. It is simply not possible.

 

[Ares]

I have gone to the pioneer website and looked at specs this what they say
Surround Power 110wx7(20Hz-20kHz,.09% THD @ 8 ohms, All Channels Driven)
and if you look at page 119 of the manual same specs with the words Continuous average power output of 110w*per channel
*measured pursuant FTC trade regulation rule on Power Claims for Amplifiers
have no ideal what that means

 

[lcaillo]

The power output specs may well be continuous power, but there is simply no way that it can output 770W while consuming 400W continuously. The power consumption is either a mistake or made with different conditions than the output specification.

 

[Ares]

So if we do the math,say 400w divide that by 7 it's more like 57.142857wpc this seems possible.So how did this receiver get THX certified select2 plus with these numbers when there are countless other receivers that have better real world numbers then this. IMO there should be a better standard the the one the FTC has especially when it comes to AV receivers no more loopholes. This way if they claim our receiver puts out x amount wpc it's a real world number not test tones at x amount of Hz or kHz but with music or movies because that's what it is used for by the consumer. There has be a better way of doing this. If the power consumption specs that are in the manual and on the back of the receiver is a mistake that's a pretty big mistake to miss.

 

[tonyvdb]

This is one reason some receiver manufacturers dont even bother getting THX certification as there seems to be a very wide margin of certified ratings given to some models that should not get them. The Onkyo 806 was a perfect example of "how could it have gotten a THX ultra 2 rating" when it could not even drive a 4 ohm load without distortion. The 805 was a solid receiver and even surprised many reviewers who did very in depth bench tests. the 806 its replacement failed very badly yet still got the certification. Maybe someone just assumed that it was the same as the 805 and turned there head or some under the table cash was exchanged who knows.
HK under rates there receivers and shows real numbers under load Sony on the other hand over rates what they can actually do. Its really a buyer beware and do your homework before you buy.

 

[Ares]

This is most unfortunate because there a lot of newcomers to HT who won't do their homework and get burned in the process because there isn't a clear standard. HK seems to be doing it right but I know a lot of people who look at these numbers and say that's enough power and end up getting HITB because it claims it puts out 100wpc when it only consumes 90w.

 

[tonyvdb]

This is most unfortunate because there a lot of newcomers to HT who won't do their homework and get burned in the process because there isn't a clear standard.

Exactly, This is too bad and that is why Sonnie and a few other individuals created the Shack so that we could give out the proper information its just a shame that more people dont use the internet to their advantage before making a purchase.

 

[Ares]

It is great thing I came across this site during my research, I was going to buy that pioneer but had a tough time finding reviews on it the I came across that question in another forum and said to myself how come nobody is addressing it, so I looked at other forums to post it myself and decided on this one and without fail it was addressed. My hope is that the OP from the other forum comes across these postings to see that his or her question was answered. Then he or she can join us here on the Shack.

 

[lcaillo]

So if we do the math,say 400w divide that by 7 it's more like 57.142857wpc this seems possible.So how did this receiver get THX certified select2 plus with these numbers when there are countless other receivers that have better real world numbers then this. IMO there should be a better standard the the one the FTC has especially when it comes to AV receivers no more loopholes. This way if they claim our receiver puts out x amount wpc it's a real world number not test tones at x amount of Hz or kHz but with music or movies because that's what it is used for by the consumer. There has be a better way of doing this. If the power consumption specs that are in the manual and on the back of the receiver is a mistake that's a pretty big mistake to miss.

You may be confusing output power with power consumption. Power consumption is what the unit uses from the a.c. supply. Power output is what is available to drive the speakers. A perfectly efficient amp would consume the same power that is output, but there are no perfect amps. Actual power consumption, however, is usually far less than the total output power that the unit is capable of producing, due to the dynamic nature of music and movie sound and the fact that most users never use anywhere close to the continuous power that the unit is rated for. The 400w number is obviously a mistake, or perhaps was intended to be a typical consumption value. Even then it would likely be a por estimate.

 

[Ares]

My question is how can a receiver consume 400w and be able output 110wpcx7 the math doesn't add up.unless there is something I am missing please explain.

 

[ccdoggy]

The explanation is that the 110 watt rating is a lie. I might guess that they got that number only driving one channel at say 1Khz. that power consumption number is its rating for its actual use. it is legally required to be its actual max power consumption. used for wiring, cabling, and what not to ensure the connections are powerful enough.

So legally that number is right, meaning the 110 cannot be correct.

My guess on the original question (ratio of input power vs output power) is that receivers with higher input power give more honest and legit output power numbers.

 

[Ares]

Steve thank you, this is what I was trying to understand personally I thought the numbers were bogus the math made no sense and I went to public school. In my mind there is noway it could put out more power then it was taking in. P.S. And may your receiver watts always be plentiful.

 

[lcaillo]

My question is how can a receiver consume 400w and be able output 110wpcx7 the math doesn't add up.unless there is something I am missing please explain.

Your question was answered. It cannot. Either the power output is not continuous at 110w x 7 channels, or the 400w power consumption is a mistake.