Power Cords for HT
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You will find a lot of good advice here. I built a DYI subwoofer 8 or 9 years ago and found the help of the members here highly valuable. There is a lot of knowledge and good advice available here. I'm sure they can offer or refer you to the answers you need. This is a good resource for all of us.
Agreed, I find the people most helpful and very knowledgeable.
For used equipment I have used audiogon.com, Canuckaudiomart.com and usaudiomart.com.
Considering the exchange rate of $1 USA to $0.75 Canadian, you get an instant 25% discount on canuckaudiomart.com.
I never had any problem with purchasing on any of these sites, but I is always possible.
Joe
For used equipment I have used audiogon.com, Canuckaudiomart.com and usaudiomart.com.
Considering the exchange rate of $1 USA to $0.75 Canadian, you get an instant 25% discount on canuckaudiomart.com.
I never had any problem with purchasing on any of these sites, but I is always possible.
Joe
I have followed this discussion from the beginning and note that the folks who hear a difference in wire vs the ones that don't are arguing the exact same points as were argued in the '80's. So let me tell you a little story.
In the '80's I was a very hard core esoteric equipment audiophile. I had had Magnepan speakers followed up with Emminent Technology LFT-VIII's. I was using an Electrocompaniet pre and power combo that cost about $4,600 together in the '80's (how much is that in today's dollars?). I had and still have a SOTA Sapphire turntable with a Kiseki Purple Heart MC cart and matching Kiseki arm. The vinyl playback combo was worth $2,500 in 1980 dollars. I had numerous high end interconnects and speaker wire. Hell, I even have pure (99.9999%) silver Van den Hul tonearm wiring from the cart to the preamp. I have no idea what I spent in wire. And I still was not in audio nirvana even though every single person who listened to my system commented that it sounded great.
Fast forward to 2009. My local Klipsch dealer was willing to sell me two Lascala II's for a song. Now like everyone hears regularly that horn speakers sound, well, like horns and in the high end community Klipsch is just not considered good at all. So I bring the Lascalas home, run Audessey on them along with the 12" sub and sit down to listen to some music.
Guess what? It was the absolute best sound I have EVER had in my house. For all you hard core esoteric audiophiles pay close attention to the next statement:
For years and years I was in search of that last nuance and spent a ton of money trying to get it. The Lascalas simply sound like great big live music the likes of which none of my other speakers can or could ever touch. They image every bit as good as the Emminent Technology's. They take little or no power and distortion is non-existent. They sound wonderful at any volume and just get better the more you turn them up(until they overpower the room). I no longer search for better equipment; I JUST LISTEN TO THE MUSIC NOW!
And I have 14 gauge Home Depot speaker wire running from my remote receiver location through walls and attic to my living room. The runs are about 40-50'. None of my equipment has special power cables; just the one that came with the unit. Why do I use wire like this? Because Paul Klipsch recommended 18 gauge LAMP CORD for Klipschorns! I use 14 only because of the run length.
Until you experience something like this you will just continue your search and spend a lot of money doing so. End of story.
In the '80's I was a very hard core esoteric equipment audiophile. I had had Magnepan speakers followed up with Emminent Technology LFT-VIII's. I was using an Electrocompaniet pre and power combo that cost about $4,600 together in the '80's (how much is that in today's dollars?). I had and still have a SOTA Sapphire turntable with a Kiseki Purple Heart MC cart and matching Kiseki arm. The vinyl playback combo was worth $2,500 in 1980 dollars. I had numerous high end interconnects and speaker wire. Hell, I even have pure (99.9999%) silver Van den Hul tonearm wiring from the cart to the preamp. I have no idea what I spent in wire. And I still was not in audio nirvana even though every single person who listened to my system commented that it sounded great.
Fast forward to 2009. My local Klipsch dealer was willing to sell me two Lascala II's for a song. Now like everyone hears regularly that horn speakers sound, well, like horns and in the high end community Klipsch is just not considered good at all. So I bring the Lascalas home, run Audessey on them along with the 12" sub and sit down to listen to some music.
Guess what? It was the absolute best sound I have EVER had in my house. For all you hard core esoteric audiophiles pay close attention to the next statement:
For years and years I was in search of that last nuance and spent a ton of money trying to get it. The Lascalas simply sound like great big live music the likes of which none of my other speakers can or could ever touch. They image every bit as good as the Emminent Technology's. They take little or no power and distortion is non-existent. They sound wonderful at any volume and just get better the more you turn them up(until they overpower the room). I no longer search for better equipment; I JUST LISTEN TO THE MUSIC NOW!
And I have 14 gauge Home Depot speaker wire running from my remote receiver location through walls and attic to my living room. The runs are about 40-50'. None of my equipment has special power cables; just the one that came with the unit. Why do I use wire like this? Because Paul Klipsch recommended 18 gauge LAMP CORD for Klipschorns! I use 14 only because of the run length.
Until you experience something like this you will just continue your search and spend a lot of money doing so. End of story.
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Agreed totally.
If you want to change your sound. It’s almost completely in the speakers.
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Much depends on HOW YOU LISTEN. Contrary to what everybody thinks, there are MANY ways people listen to music and lots of us are NOT listening to the same things or in the same way. Example: I knew, for a while, a guy who was a jazz musician and he manufactured with his own hands, one at a time, pre-amps and amps. He was very very good at it. Somehow we got to listening and talking about cables and power cords and I had some with me and he said he hadn't heard any differences with his setup. So we changed something, don't recall what it was now, this was in the mid-1990s. He said he didn't hear a difference, I said the cable I brought had a warmer sound than what he was using. He swore nothing was different so we listened to 2 more different kinds of music, but all jazz. Nothing. Impasse. I heard something, he didn't. So I asked to to explain to me exactly what he was listening to while judging and he said he was listening to the communication between the musicians, how one setup a solo for the next guy and so on through the recording. How the ensemble played together, and how, when they were playing together, they would call and reply to each other. I'm sitting there flabbergasted. It had never occurred to me that anybody was listening to music like that. Then he said: "Why were you being so still with your eyes closed?" And I said because having my eyes open is distracting, I can't focus as much on the music. My brain uses a lot of processing power on vision, but when I turn my vision "off" (close my eyes), my hearing and focus on the music is almost like using a microscope on the music. I would listen to the QUALITY of the acoustic bass, the chest-thump from kick drums, the sounds of the body of each instrument combining with the notes, the fingering of buttons and levers on horns, reed sound, violin bow interfacing with strings right up close. Resonances of instrument bodies, tone, color... NOTHING the other guy was listening to.
If you don't listen the way I was listening (and that is FINE, if you enjoy music listening YOUR way, more power to you), you aren't likely to hear the same things I hear. When I turn on a movie with 12 channels of sound... my brain literally listens completely differently and NONE of the differences I hear with power cords and interconnects make a worthwhile change. I don't know how much brain power vision requires, but I suspect it is a lot more processing power than what is assigned to hearing. So when your eyes are open, hearing is less "focused" in my opinion. So... if you listen to music in a dark room with your eyes closed and imagine each instrument being played and how every note sounds individually and together and how big or small the recording space is or what that rumble is way in the background (some recordings I have made in a church after midnight in NYC have low frequency rumbles from the subway trains going under the church)? That's not how a lot of people listen and I would suggest, that if you aren't listening that way, don't bother with spending a bunch on cables and a $3000 DAC instead of a $200 DAC, etc. I believe the differences are real, and it is also true that what we know about signals in wires for music is incomplete. But CERTAINLY, you will never convince anybody who listens to music as just entertainment with eyes open and not focusing on anything but lyrics and melody (or how jazz musicians "talk" to each other) that cables will make a meaningful difference for them. When you aren't the sort of listener who focuses on subtle details, individual instruments and details of each note (was that a violin, or a viola? Steel, bronze, or gut strings on that guitar?), and you never focus on the size of the apparent space in the recording (left-right, sometimes front-back, and rarely high/low, live recordings of acoustic instruments in performance spaces are best for that, but some studio recordings have it too, and sometimes it is artificial but still adds interest to the music) and you are in a dark room with eyes closed and zero distractions that cables and wires will enhance their listening experience. You just aren't listening the same way (that is not good or bad, it just is what it is). So there's really no sense arguing. I hear incredible detail in good stereo recordings and I love finding every little nuance of sound over 6 or 12 listens over time. I don't focus all that much on specific lyrics, but more on the quality of the voice and how it combines with instruments. When I listen to music, within a few seconds I can go into a state where my wife thinks I am asleep, but if she walks across the room in front of me, I can "see" her outline in the soundstage of the music and more than once I've called out her name while she was trying to prove I was asleep by sneaking around while I was listening to music. Those were the few times in my life where I understood what blind people say about being able to build moderately useful "pictures" in their heads of the spaces they are in. In spite of being blind, they can sense directions in the building, large openings, generally have a fairly good idea of how big the space is, and how close or far people are. I never used to understand how that could happen until I experienced it for myself while in that music listening meditative state.
All that said, I've never seen ANY power cord change the video image quality on any digital video display from as far back as 2006 until today (and I've used more than 100 different new video displays in that time period. But change to stereo music and close eyes... whole different story. I like listening to music with AuroMatic processing (the upmixer that comes with Auro-3D). In fact, I like AuroMatic more than stereo music now because I can get music into 12 channels and all that extra information in the room keeps me from getting into that analytic mode and I can just let the music go... and I do that often because there are just times I want to relax without being focused on details.
If you don't listen the way I was listening (and that is FINE, if you enjoy music listening YOUR way, more power to you), you aren't likely to hear the same things I hear. When I turn on a movie with 12 channels of sound... my brain literally listens completely differently and NONE of the differences I hear with power cords and interconnects make a worthwhile change. I don't know how much brain power vision requires, but I suspect it is a lot more processing power than what is assigned to hearing. So when your eyes are open, hearing is less "focused" in my opinion. So... if you listen to music in a dark room with your eyes closed and imagine each instrument being played and how every note sounds individually and together and how big or small the recording space is or what that rumble is way in the background (some recordings I have made in a church after midnight in NYC have low frequency rumbles from the subway trains going under the church)? That's not how a lot of people listen and I would suggest, that if you aren't listening that way, don't bother with spending a bunch on cables and a $3000 DAC instead of a $200 DAC, etc. I believe the differences are real, and it is also true that what we know about signals in wires for music is incomplete. But CERTAINLY, you will never convince anybody who listens to music as just entertainment with eyes open and not focusing on anything but lyrics and melody (or how jazz musicians "talk" to each other) that cables will make a meaningful difference for them. When you aren't the sort of listener who focuses on subtle details, individual instruments and details of each note (was that a violin, or a viola? Steel, bronze, or gut strings on that guitar?), and you never focus on the size of the apparent space in the recording (left-right, sometimes front-back, and rarely high/low, live recordings of acoustic instruments in performance spaces are best for that, but some studio recordings have it too, and sometimes it is artificial but still adds interest to the music) and you are in a dark room with eyes closed and zero distractions that cables and wires will enhance their listening experience. You just aren't listening the same way (that is not good or bad, it just is what it is). So there's really no sense arguing. I hear incredible detail in good stereo recordings and I love finding every little nuance of sound over 6 or 12 listens over time. I don't focus all that much on specific lyrics, but more on the quality of the voice and how it combines with instruments. When I listen to music, within a few seconds I can go into a state where my wife thinks I am asleep, but if she walks across the room in front of me, I can "see" her outline in the soundstage of the music and more than once I've called out her name while she was trying to prove I was asleep by sneaking around while I was listening to music. Those were the few times in my life where I understood what blind people say about being able to build moderately useful "pictures" in their heads of the spaces they are in. In spite of being blind, they can sense directions in the building, large openings, generally have a fairly good idea of how big the space is, and how close or far people are. I never used to understand how that could happen until I experienced it for myself while in that music listening meditative state.
All that said, I've never seen ANY power cord change the video image quality on any digital video display from as far back as 2006 until today (and I've used more than 100 different new video displays in that time period. But change to stereo music and close eyes... whole different story. I like listening to music with AuroMatic processing (the upmixer that comes with Auro-3D). In fact, I like AuroMatic more than stereo music now because I can get music into 12 channels and all that extra information in the room keeps me from getting into that analytic mode and I can just let the music go... and I do that often because there are just times I want to relax without being focused on details.
I agree that people listen differently because I used to listen differently when I was an all-in audiophile. I am also a musician and believe that is why the Lascalas were such a treat to me. Because musicians not only listen totally differently but even more critically than do audiophiles.
A musician in an orchestra must do many different things all at the same time. And every one of these things require listening. A wind instrument player must dynamically correct for tuning (musicians call this intonation) continuously while playing. At the same time they must a) listen to all the other musicians, b) listen to their own attack and tone, c) ensure that their attack and tone is in sync with the other musicians, d) count, e) watch the conductor for cues and f) read music. Note I said at the same time. And they cannot close their eyes while doing so. Musicians do not have the luxury of cutting off one sense to enhance another.
Now this brings us to another point. It is my experience that musicians are not generally audiophiles. Why? Because I believe that they fill in the blanks where stuff is missing and they throw away the superfluous stuff that is irrelevant to the music. It has been said (and only musicians can appreciate this) that symphonies were not written not for audiences but for the musicians in the orchestra because they are the only ones who can truly appreciate the composition. This is because they are in the middle of the music experiencing it in a way the audience cannot. Sort of like a 100 channel surround system.
All of this leads us to why certain speakers appeal to musicians and others do not. Speakers are generally either musical or accurate. It is very difficult to have both in a speaker. For me Lascalas do the music very well because they make the sound ‘big’ like a live orchestra. My Emminent Technology LFT VIII’s were very accurate and imaged exceedingly well. But the sound was ‘small’ and did not adequately convey the live music experience to the listener like the Lascalas do. This is very difficult to describe but very real. In short the Electrocompaniet slogan applies - “If music matters”. And that, simply, is what I was trying to say in my original post. I have graduated from focusing on the sound and clarity of individual instruments on the soundstage to the size and impact of the music itself.
But different folks like different things and that’s what makes this hobby fun.
A musician in an orchestra must do many different things all at the same time. And every one of these things require listening. A wind instrument player must dynamically correct for tuning (musicians call this intonation) continuously while playing. At the same time they must a) listen to all the other musicians, b) listen to their own attack and tone, c) ensure that their attack and tone is in sync with the other musicians, d) count, e) watch the conductor for cues and f) read music. Note I said at the same time. And they cannot close their eyes while doing so. Musicians do not have the luxury of cutting off one sense to enhance another.
Now this brings us to another point. It is my experience that musicians are not generally audiophiles. Why? Because I believe that they fill in the blanks where stuff is missing and they throw away the superfluous stuff that is irrelevant to the music. It has been said (and only musicians can appreciate this) that symphonies were not written not for audiences but for the musicians in the orchestra because they are the only ones who can truly appreciate the composition. This is because they are in the middle of the music experiencing it in a way the audience cannot. Sort of like a 100 channel surround system.
All of this leads us to why certain speakers appeal to musicians and others do not. Speakers are generally either musical or accurate. It is very difficult to have both in a speaker. For me Lascalas do the music very well because they make the sound ‘big’ like a live orchestra. My Emminent Technology LFT VIII’s were very accurate and imaged exceedingly well. But the sound was ‘small’ and did not adequately convey the live music experience to the listener like the Lascalas do. This is very difficult to describe but very real. In short the Electrocompaniet slogan applies - “If music matters”. And that, simply, is what I was trying to say in my original post. I have graduated from focusing on the sound and clarity of individual instruments on the soundstage to the size and impact of the music itself.
But different folks like different things and that’s what makes this hobby fun.
Back in the 90's I picked up my brother in laws Klipsh Heresys. Not nearly as wonderful as the Lascalas, but when I played them for my wife I asked her if she could hear more than what she heard using headphones. It was clear and she could hear it. In the following years I can't tell you how many times I would be out of the room and hear a piano being played. Not a recording of a piano, but a real piano (there was also a real one in the room). I have not found other speakers capable of this feat.
And that’s exactly why I have them. One of Paul Klipsch’s favorite demos was a recording of a car door closing. I guarantee you would think a car was right in the room. Besides that music just sounds like music.
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