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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I'm looking to buy a amp to replace my Dayton SA-1000... Why you ask... well because I'm considering going with dual sealed subs (HST-15's) and my Dayton is a mono amp. Here is what I'm looking for.

1. Quiet
2. Lots of power
3. RCA inputs & speaker wire connections if possible

I've looked at the iNukes but I dont like the fact the fan is so loud. I REALLY REALLY REALLY like the Crown XLS stuff but I have learned they have a 20hz highpass filter built in that you can defeat, which if true takes it out of the running....

The plan is to run them direct from my AVR and would prefer not to have to go through a MiniDSP 2x4 Balanced (and then make all my own cables, etc). Right now I have an Integra DTR 5.9 and NO IDEA how much Vrms the pre-outs are using, so I'm going to guess its the standard 775. BUT I'm planning on moving to the Denon X4100 which has a higher pre-out voltage of 1.2 Vrms IIRC, which would let me drive the amp to almost its full potential.

So what would you suggest?

PS I'm not against running them both off the Dayton initially (will throw the EQ off a bit, and would be a waste of the massive excursion potential of the HST driver but whatever) and buying a second Dayton later, but they aren't cheap either so a single amp solution would be preferred....
 

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Which HST's and what size enclosure?
 

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Discussion Starter #3

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I have the HST 18's and I can truthfully say they need lots of power. If you are going with sealed enclosures all you are going to need for a x-over is the LPF on your AVR and yes a DSP is nice because even though the LPF is fine if you want to fine tune the subs using REW then the DSP comes in handy. Based on talking to Nick at Stereo Integrity I was told the HST18 will handle lots of power as in the 1500wrms rating is just a number he put up he said these subs can handle well beyond that. I am sure the 15 is not quite as beefy as the 18 but it will still handle a lot. If you go with a pro amp from what I read fan noise is going to be an issue some moe than others. I also understand by replacing the fans it will void the warranty and to some people taking the amp apart to replace the fans is not something they want to do.
When I started looking for amps I asked lots of questions sometimes repeating myself. so this is kind of the breakdown on what I looked at and what I finally got.

( Most of the info I got was from asking questions on the AVS forum )
nu6000 decided not to because in a best case situation 2 nu3000 would give better performance.
nu12000 too many negative reviews
CV-5000 too big this amp weighs almost 80lbs.
Crown to get the power I wanted too expensive.
FP14000 Clone amp came pretty close the price including shipping around 920 ( not bad for a 14000watt amp ) however if there is a problem they do offer a 2 year warr. but you have to call and they will help you fix it over the phone and then will send you the parts to fix but you pay shipping.
Peavey 7500 great amp can be bought for about the same as 2 nu3000 but to get the deal you go on e-bay type in Peavey7500 look for Audio Savings give them a call and see what their best price is.
Crest Pro Lite 7.5 I bought this one a higher end version of the Peavey it was listed for over 1000 I got it for 800. works great.
As a side note I was also told the either the 6000 or the pair of 3000's will work but it will not give these subs much of a work out. I know for a fact they move a lot of air.

You mentioned you wanted to avoid the miniDSP because of making the cables I was a little nervous about this also but there is plenty of images and how to threads on this and really it took less than 5 minutes to make a cable ( it was pretty easy ) it seems using the mini is not hard once you start really looking at it.Before I forget another thing with amps is to get a good quality amp I kind of look at it if you buy a really good car the warranty does not really come into play however if you buy a car with an iffy reputation then the warranty becomes important. In my case I replaced both fans in my Crest Amp all said and done 20minutes the amp is quiet and I paid less than 20 for both fans. I have never had an issue with over heating so I hope you find this helpful and it might make things a little easier.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I have the HST 18's and I can truthfully say they need lots of power. If you are going with sealed enclosures all you are going to need for a x-over is the LPF on your AVR and yes a DSP is nice because even though the LPF is fine if you want to fine tune the subs using REW then the DSP comes in handy. Based on talking to Nick at Stereo Integrity I was told the HST18 will handle lots of power as in the 1500wrms rating is just a number he put up he said these subs can handle well beyond that. I am sure the 15 is not quite as beefy as the 18 but it will still handle a lot.
I'm aware I dont need a high pass since its sealed, but if the amp HAS a high pass on it already, then its not going to do what I'm wanting which is boosting the low end specifically the below 20hz stuff....

Thats my end game here, increase the lower end stuff even if it costs a bit of the higher frequencies, BUT within a 3-4 cubic square foot sub MAX. I cant go bigger, and honestly 3 cubic foot is likely what I can do....

I have the HST 18's and I can truthfully say they need lots of power. If you are going with sealed enclosures all you are going to need for a x-over is the LPF on your AVR and yes a DSP is nice because even though the LPF is fine if you want to fine tune the subs using REW then the DSP comes in handy. Based on talking to Nick at Stereo Integrity I was told the HST18 will handle lots of power as in the 1500wrms rating is just a number he put up he said these subs can handle well beyond that. I am sure the 15 is not quite as beefy as the 18 but it will still handle a lot. If you go with a pro amp from what I read fan noise is going to be an issue some moe than others. I also understand by replacing the fans it will void the warranty and to some people taking the amp apart to replace the fans is not something they want to do.
When I started looking for amps I asked lots of questions sometimes repeating myself. so this is kind of the breakdown on what I looked at and what I finally got.


( Most of the info I got was from asking questions on the AVS forum )
nu6000 decided not to because in a best case situation 2 nu3000 would give better performance.
nu12000 too many negative reviews
CV-5000 too big this amp weighs almost 80lbs.
Crown to get the power I wanted too expensive.
FP14000 Clone amp came pretty close the price including shipping around 920 ( not bad for a 14000watt amp ) however if there is a problem they do offer a 2 year warr. but you have to call and they will help you fix it over the phone and then will send you the parts to fix but you pay shipping.
Peavey 7500 great amp can be bought for about the same as 2 nu3000 but to get the deal you go on e-bay type in Peavey7500 look for Audio Savings give them a call and see what their best price is.
Crest Pro Lite 7.5 I bought this one a higher end version of the Peavey it was listed for over 1000 I got it for 800. works great.
As a side note I was also told the either the 6000 or the pair of 3000's will work but it will not give these subs much of a work out. I know for a fact they move a lot of air.

Before I forget another thing with amps is to get a good quality amp I kind of look at it if you buy a really good car the warranty does not really come into play however if you buy a car with an iffy reputation then the warranty becomes important. In my case I replaced both fans in my Crest Amp all said and done 20 minutes the amp is quiet and I paid less than 20 for both fans. I have never had an issue with over heating so I hope you find this helpful and it might make things a little easier.
Thank you for your thoughts. I will take a look through the list and see whats what. I should mention my initial goal is to see if the XLS 1500 or 2500 would work best as I may have a line on either for a very low price from a buddy. However if they do have a 20hz lowpass then it likely makes no sense to use since thats the main reason I'm looking to move from a HT-15 in a ported box to the HST. The Crowns also have fans that rarely turn on, so they are good for being quiet.... But again if they wont work, they wont work....

I dont doubt I could take the amps apart and DO the work to replace the fan, but I dont want to deal with potential problems or a voided warranty due to the fan replacement, or down time during a repair. Additionally my rack does not have somewhere I can put the amp where it gets optimum airflow.....

You mentioned you wanted to avoid the miniDSP because of making the cables I was a little nervous about this also but there is plenty of images and how to threads on this and really it took less than 5 minutes to make a cable ( it was pretty easy ) it seems using the mini is not hard once you start really looking at it.
Their are a couple reasons I dont want to deal with a MiniDSP. I had one (2 x 4 RCA) and sold it.

1. I will have XT 32 on my AVR and would prefer to let that do its thing
2. I dont want to deal with making my own cables as I'd want to use high quality interconnects, and would then have to basically destroy them to make my own
3. I've got a 2 year old and a newborn on the way, I don't really have time to tweak
 

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I'm looking to buy a amp to replace my Dayton SA-1000... Why you ask... well because I'm considering going with dual sealed subs (HST-15's) and my Dayton is a mono amp. Here is what I'm looking for.

1. Quiet
2. Lots of power
3. RCA inputs & speaker wire connections if possible

I've looked at the iNukes but I dont like the fact the fan is so loud. I REALLY REALLY REALLY like the Crown XLS stuff but I have learned they have a 20hz highpass filter built in that you can defeat, which if true takes it out of the running....

The plan is to run them direct from my AVR and would prefer not to have to go through a MiniDSP 2x4 Balanced (and then make all my own cables, etc). Right now I have an Integra DTR 5.9 and NO IDEA how much Vrms the pre-outs are using, so I'm going to guess its the standard 775. BUT I'm planning on moving to the Denon X4100 which has a higher pre-out voltage of 1.2 Vrms IIRC, which would let me drive the amp to almost its full potential.

So what would you suggest?

PS I'm not against running them both off the Dayton initially (will throw the EQ off a bit, and would be a waste of the massive excursion potential of the HST driver but whatever) and buying a second Dayton later, but they aren't cheap either so a single amp solution would be preferred....
Class D Audio SDS-470. Stereo amplifier with 600 watts per channel into 4 ohms with balanced and single ended inputs, level controls and no fan. Quiet, powerful and compact.
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
Ok so I'm now debating going for 2 HST-15's.... I'm going to try and buy both and then build the first, and then the second (to replace the end table).

My budget CANNOT reach to 4 (2 x DO) so thats not an option really. And I'm thinking that I should go with 2 independent subs rather than one DO sub (box size cant change so 2 x 3 cubic feet x 1 sub trumps 1 x 3 cubic feet with 2 subs). That way I can help even out the response, though I'm sure SPL wise I will pay for the difference with a few less db, which I am honestly fine with (at least my head says that should be ok)....

What I'm thinking is to build 2 3 cubic foot sealed downfiring boxes. I'm not sure if I need them to be 1.5" thick or can just do 3/4 thick and a double baffle..... My HOPE is that I can do that and then just buy 2 DIYSoundGroup 3 cubic foot boxes because then all the work and cutting is done for me. They I just need to finish one to look like an endtable. Additionally one of my co-workers husbands is a cabinet maker, so I might be able to have him make me 2 boxes and help me finish the one to look like an end table. But at 90 bucks shipped for a pre-made enclosure, its hard to beat that price.

I also talked to Crown about their XLS amps and the subsonic/highpass filter I've been reading about. They told me there is a rolloff starting at 20hz that is a 18db per octave. They also mentioned this is kinda a industry standard for pro amps.... So I now have a couple questions

1. Am I correct in thinking this means the output RMS wise is down 18db from 20hz to 10hz? If so how would I model that in WinISD, or do I even need to.
2. Should I just try to instead of a pro-amp, secure another Dayton SA1000 amp and run one sub per amp (1000 watts @ 4 ohms)?

And lastly I have some concerns about the HST driver in a sealed box. Do I need to worry about them walking around on me? My thought was to install feet of some sort that can then take a set of spikes (Dayton DSS3) to couple it to the floor. Here is what I am thinking about but I want some thoughts.

I am going to make these downfiring. My thought process is to build some sort of hollow section at the top, into which I will put plastic ziploc bags filled with play sand. This top section will be totally enclosed and glued/sealed to make sure nothing leaks, but it will add a significant amount of mass to the enclosure to make sure it wont move around. Then another piece of MDF will go over the top of it to close it off. I figure about a 1 or 2" section filled with sand should do a very good job at making sure the enclosure doesnt bounce.

1. It this a good idea, have you seen it done before (and links to it please)?
2. Do I need to add additional mass?

And my last thought which I'm 90% going to go with is to wire the enclosures to accept both bananna/spade connections AND speak-on. My main question is I see there is a 2 pin and a 4 pin chassic connector... which should I use and why? Additionally can I tie those in line with the RCA connections as well or do I need to run them independent of the RCA connections?
 

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I’ll take a shot at some of your questions.


1. Am I correct in thinking this means the output RMS wise is down 18db from 20hz to 10hz?
Frequency response will be down 18 dB at 10 Hz.


And my last thought which I'm 90% going to go with is to wire the enclosures to accept both bananna/spade connections AND speak-on. My main question is I see there is a 2 pin and a 4 pin chassic connector... which should I use and why?
Go with 4-pin, and wire the driver to 1+ and 1-. The 2-pin version isn’t really used much. For example, if you buy an off-the-shelf Speakon speaker cable, it will have a 4-pin connector.


Additionally can I tie those in line with the RCA connections as well or do I need to run them independent of the RCA connections?
You lost me here. I’m sure you aren’t talking about tying speaker lines into RCA’s but that’s what it sounds like.

Regards,
Wayne
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I’ll take a shot at some of your questions.


Frequency response will be down 18 dB at 10 Hz.


Go with 4-pin, and wire the driver to 1+ and 1-. The 2-pin version isn’t really used much. For example, if you buy an off-the-shelf Speakon speaker cable, it will have a 4-pin connector.
Thanks Wayne thats what I was wondering. That makes a bit stronger of a case for using another Dayton SA-1000 rather than a pro amp.

You lost me here. I’m sure you aren’t talking about tying speaker lines into RCA’s but that’s what it sounds like.

Regards,
Wayne
Sorry what I meant to say is can I wire the speakon connections in line with the binding post connections so I can easily switch between the two without having to pull the driver out....

Brain was on meltdown at work so I used RCA where I should have used binding posts....
 

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just to let you know, those HST drivers can handle stupid amounts of power. that Dayton SA-1000 isn't putting out even 1000 watts. it's been measured at BARELY putting out half that rated continuous power. it's really only a 600 watt amp. Meaning you're leaving those subs DRASTICALLY under powered. to really get the most out of them you should get at least a Peavey IPR 2 7500. If you're that amp limited and don't want to upgrade to a pro amp, then just get the HT-18's or the Dayton HO 15's...... you're not going to see a wild improvement without the power to back it up
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
just to let you know, those HST drivers can handle stupid amounts of power. that Dayton SA-1000 isn't putting out even 1000 watts. it's been measured at BARELY putting out half that rated continuous power. it's really only a 600 watt amp. Meaning you're leaving those subs DRASTICALLY under powered. to really get the most out of them you should get at least a Peavey IPR 2 7500. If you're that amp limited and don't want to upgrade to a pro amp, then just get the HT-18's or the Dayton HO 15's...... you're not going to see a wild improvement without the power to back it up
I am well aware of the stupid amount of power the HST drivers can handle. The ONLY reason I am looking at the HST drivers is the added Xmax and the fact they can do decent in small boxes.

I figured before I spend a grand on an amp I'd use what I have to keep the cost lower since the drivers alone are 700 bucks.

I have access to both a XLS 1500 and a XLS 2500, hence why I'm wiring the boxes for speakon and binding posts. But just because they can handle 1.2 gigawatts of power doesnt mean thats how much I need to give them for them to do their thing. I barely get the Dayton above 1/2 gain before its too much sub for me.

Nick is using a iNuke 6000 for his dual HST-11's and I can PROMISE you that amp doenst do anything even CLOSE to its rated spec's, but he seems to be happy with the volume he gets...

My point is underpowering the subs may well be what happens, but as long as I'm not CLIPPING THE AMP doing it, besides just having some potential left on the floor its not gonna blow the amp.

Additionally that XMax allows for some PEQ not possible with the other drivers due to their excursion limits. So I can tweak things a bit to even out my room response without wondering if I'm bottoming out the driver.
 

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I am well aware of the stupid amount of power the HST drivers can handle. The ONLY reason I am looking at the HST drivers is the added Xmax and the fact they can do decent in small boxes.

I figured before I spend a grand on an amp I'd use what I have to keep the cost lower since the drivers alone are 700 bucks.

I have access to both a XLS 1500 and a XLS 2500, hence why I'm wiring the boxes for speakon and binding posts. But just because they can handle 1.2 gigawatts of power doesnt mean thats how much I need to give them for them to do their thing. I barely get the Dayton above 1/2 gain before its too much sub for me.

Hell Nick is using a iNuke 6000 for his dual HST-11's and I can PROMISE you that amp doenst do anything even CLOSE to its rated spec's, but he seems to be happy with the volume he gets...
whatever floats your boat. Just saying taht the added Xmax means nothing if you can't even get CLOSE to the xmax with that little power (even at 2000 watts you'd not reach Xmax in a 3 cu ft box unless you add a ton of boost)

that NU 6000 is definitely over rated, but it puts about between 1200 and 1800 watts per channel (1200 being closer to continuous). which is a lot closer to the 2000 watts those puppies can probably handle.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
whatever floats your boat. Just saying taht the added Xmax means nothing if you can't even get CLOSE to the xmax with that little power (even at 2000 watts you'd not reach Xmax in a 3 cu ft box unless you add a ton of boost)
If you just model the sub in a sealed box then yes, your right. But Audyssey is undoubtedly going to add some boosts and cuts (which then change the amp load and cone excursion) to even out response and help it out down low.

If I'm still using the Dayton as well I plan to add some PEQ so that I boost the lower end response and that also jacks up the excursion of the driver as well. Additionally I'm mainly modeling the driver with filters in WinISD so the VA load in WinISD stays below 800 because I know the Dayton isn't really a 1000 watt amp.

And in the end those WinISD models are only really a template for how loud it can get. Its doesn't account for how it actually measure in your room at the main LP, at the levels you listen at.

Which is why I'm busting out the UMIK-1 mic on Saturday (while my wife is at a baby shower) to measure my room response with the HT-15 I have in my ported box to see how it measures to hopefully get a baseline for what the HST drivers will add.

that NU 6000 is definitely over rated, but it puts about between 1200 and 1800 watts per channel (1200 being closer to continuous). which is a lot closer to the 2000 watts those puppies can probably handle.
Has anyone measured it if the output stays steady under 20hz or not? Mainly I'm curious if it also has a 18db per octave filter that starts at 20zh like the Crowns. Because I dont mind dropping some cash on either the XLS 1500 or 2500 as the fan noise on them shouldn't be too bad, and I also trust the Crown specs to be closer to actual measurements as well.
 

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If you just model the sub in a sealed box then yes, your right. But Audyssey is undoubtedly going to add some boosts and cuts (which then change the amp load and cone excursion) to even out response and help it out down low.

If I'm still using the Dayton as well I plan to add some PEQ so that I boost the lower end response and that also jacks up the excursion of the driver as well. Additionally I'm mainly modeling the driver with filters in WinISD so the VA load in WinISD stays below 800 because I know the Dayton isn't really a 1000 watt amp.

And in the end those WinISD models are only really a template for how loud it can get. Its doesn't account for how it actually measure in your room at the main LP, at the levels you listen at.

Which is why I'm busting out the UMIK-1 mic on Saturday (while my wife is at a baby shower) to measure my room response with the HT-15 I have in my ported box to see how it measures to hopefully get a baseline for what the HST drivers will add.



Has anyone measured it if the output stays steady under 20hz or not? Mainly I'm curious if it also has a 18db per octave filter that starts at 20zh like the Crowns. Because I dont mind dropping some cash on either the XLS 1500 or 2500 as the fan noise on them shouldn't be too bad, and I also trust the Crown specs to be closer to actual measurements as well.
over at AVS they have... the non dsp amps will start dipping at 10hz or so (it might have been 5), the DSP units have an undefeatable 20hz HPF in them.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
over at AVS they have... the non dsp amps will start dipping at 10hz or so (it might have been 5), the DSP units have an undefeatable 20hz HPF in them.
Thanks I remember that now. They use some sort of cheat in the DSP to raise the bottom end IIRC.

So the iNuke is mainly used for its DSP and bottom basement price for the wattage v the higher price v the same wattage from a Crown if I'm reading this right then.

iNuke needs a fan mod and some heat sink work whereas the Crown likely doesn't but it's got less wattage as well.

I wonder how well the HST models impedance wise at 2 ohms.... That pulls a of a lot of wattage out of the Crowns by I'm worried it would clip...

Now a SET of Crown 1500s bridged for 4 ohms at 1500 watts would do decent (and maybe be in budget with some friends and family discounts) but a set of 2500s would NOT be...
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Mike:

Between the three amps listed below what would you go with knowing its going to be in the same room as the speakers (for noise purposes) and why.

XLS 2500: 2400 x 1 @ 4 ohms bridged, 775 x 2 @ 4 ohms stereo
XLS 1500: 1550 x 1 @ 4 ohms bridged, 525 x 2 @ 4 ohms stereo
iNuke 6000: (not bridgeable), 1200 x 2 @ 4 ohms stereo
iNuke 6000 DSP: (not bridgeable), 1200 x 2 @ 4 ohms stereo
 

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Mike:

Between the three amps listed below what would you go with knowing its going to be in the same room as the speakers (for noise purposes) and why.

XLS 2500: 2400 x 1 @ 4 ohms bridged, 775 x 2 @ 4 ohms stereo
XLS 1500: 1550 x 1 @ 4 ohms bridged, 525 x 2 @ 4 ohms stereo
iNuke 6000: (not bridgeable), 1200 x 2 @ 4 ohms stereo
iNuke 6000 DSP: (not bridgeable), 1200 x 2 @ 4 ohms stereo


depends on how much money you want to spend :D... 2 of the XLS 2500's would be the best bet out of those choises.. they're silent and pushing 2000-2400 watts per driver would make you king of the world.


for price. the Inuke6000 is unbeatable...

HOWEVER, if I had my choice, get an IPR2 7500 or a CV 5000 ... both will put a dedicated 2000 watts per channel and the IPR2 is actually rather quite out of the box... then toss on a minidsp for good measure
 

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Discussion Starter #19
depends on how much money you want to spend :D... 2 of the XLS 2500's would be the best bet out of those choises.. they're silent and pushing 2000-2400 watts per driver would make you king of the world.


for price. the Inuke6000 is unbeatable...

HOWEVER, if I had my choice, get an IPR2 7500 or a CV 5000 ... both will put a dedicated 2000 watts per channel and the IPR2 is actually rather quite out of the box... then toss on a minidsp for good measure
I ask because I might be able to snag the 2500 as part of a trade with a buddy. That leaves me with no cost for it, and I can only really afford to do one HST-15 right now anyway.

So that will move me from:

HT-15 in a 4 cubic foot ported box tuned to 21hz w/ the Dayton SA-1000 (not to be confused with the older SPA-1000)

TO

HST-15 in a 3 cubic foot sealed box, stuffed to the brim with polyfill driven by a bridged XLS 2500.....

I'm not really super keen on the MiniDSP as I'd prefer to just let Audyssey XT 32 do its thing and then measure with REW and my UMIK-1 mic to see how well its done and IF I then need help (when I'd buy it).
 

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I ask because I might be able to snag the 2500 as part of a trade with a buddy. That leaves me with no cost for it, and I can only really afford to do one HST-15 right now anyway.

So that will move me from:

HT-15 in a 4 cubic foot ported box tuned to 21hz w/ the Dayton SA-1000 (not to be confused with the older SPA-1000)

TO

HST-15 in a 3 cubic foot sealed box, stuffed to the brim with polyfill driven by a bridged XLS 2500.....

I'm not really super keen on the MiniDSP as I'd prefer to just let Audyssey XT 32 do its thing and then measure with REW and my UMIK-1 mic to see how well its done and IF I then need help (when I'd buy it).


ahh, if you can get it in a trade. why NOT... one of those bridged for an HST 15 would be siiiiiiiiiick (although, if you can get an XLS-2500 why not get the HST 18 ??? not much more and give you a good chunk more output,)


from experience, Audessey does an OOOOOOOK job of setting eq on a sub, but NOWHERE near what REW and a minidsp can do. especially when boosting the low end (which a sealed sub will most likely need)... it's not a big deal, you can pick one up down the road if you're wanting too, but a minidsp or a the dsp in an inuke will trash X32 in terms of it's eq ability for subs.. X32 really shines on speakers, but with subs it's kinda "meh"
 
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