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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Guys,

I just pulled the trigger on three new Klipsch THX Ultra 2 tractrix titanium 1" horns I found. I have always liked the sound of a Tractrix horn design, so I went ahead and bought three for L C R. I am so excited to hear these.

I am considering using the following drivers:

1. Dayton Audio RS270-8 10" Reference Woofer

2. Tang Band W4-1337SD 4" Titanium Driver (mid)

3. Along with the THX Ultra2 7" x 10" Horn Tweeter with 1" Titanium Compression Driver

I haven't purchased any mids or lows yet and was curious of opinions on these. I haven't decided on a cabinet size for each driver yet since I haven't yet used the software to test them. But, most likely in my head I am thinking larger ported box for the woofer with a small sealed box inside that for the mid within the woofer box. I would cross over the speakers at 300Hz ish and 4,000Hz ish with an L-Pad on the tweeter to keep it consistent with the mid.

So any opinions on the mids and lows?

They seem like a great match of price to features. The titanium also on the mid to pair up with the tweeters. My goal is good 40Hz or lower response on these cabs and as natural as possible as they will be for home cinema mostly. I hope they provide the good dynamics and detail. I have 120W RMS per channel available for them from my Elite VX-42. I plan to replace the Klipsch F-10 towers I have.




Regards,
David

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What are you going to do for crossovers? I was going to suggest the MiniDSPs, but you would have to run a Tri-amp setup I believe. Sounds like it will be a nice project. :T
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
What are you going to do for crossovers? I was going to suggest the MiniDSPs, but you would have to run a Tri-amp setup I believe. Sounds like it will be a nice project. :T
I considered that, but cost of a new receiver and amps I can't afford. I don't have preamp outputs on this receiver except LFE. True though that would be so nice and easy.

Passive crossovers. Not sure on slopes yet.

Regards,
David

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I fully understand... My setup was budget too. I had to go with the miniDSPs as the Denon kept setting my crossover from the horns to the bass bins at the wrong frequency. The only way to correct it was to lower the gain on the horns, and raise the gain on the bass bins. I am using T chip amps for my horns. They were only $60 for a 25wpch stereo amp.
 

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If you are doing passive crossovers take your time and go slow. It will majorly pay off to get the design right and avoid having to go back and fix things. Please ask for help and/or PM me directly and I will be glad to help as my time allows. In general active xovers are desirable for their ease of tweaking and simplicity, at the penalty of the hardware/DSP and extra amp channels. You don't lose anything by going passive, it's just more work up front.

With the 10" RS woofer you should do well in a large vented cab and get to 40 Hz easily, so good approach there. A true ~100W RMS amp will be great for this application in a three-way.

For the crossover slopes, you will want to exactly target an even number of octaves. This has to do with the phase response of the drivers. Three is a good number to shoot for, i.e. 300/2400 Hz.

The mid and the woofer you have chosen have nicely flat responses and should be "easy" to work with :T The woofer will be the weak point of the system in terms of sensitivity, so you may need considerable tweeter padding to get it down to the same level as the woofer and mid (horns having inherently high sensitivity).


-Have you done any speaker builds before?
-Do you have a speaker tester like for measuring drivers with REW, or a Dayton DATS?
-Do you have a calibrated mic to take driver measurements with? This will be especially needed if you can't find frequency response data for the Klipsch horns.
-Have you used any crossover design software before?
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
For the crossover slopes, you will want to exactly target an even number of octaves. This has to do with the phase response of the drivers. Three is a good number to shoot for, i.e. 300/2400


-Have you done any speaker builds before?
-Do you have a speaker tester like for measuring drivers with REW, or a Dayton DATS?
-Do you have a calibrated mic to take driver measurements with? This will be especially needed if you can't find frequency response data for the Klipsch horns.
-Have you used any crossover design software before?
-I have done many speaker builds before
-I will be needing guidance on software and test mic good for the money, but accurate.
-I didn't know there was crossover design software. Which one is good? I normally look at charts and whatnot for the components or buy pre-made/designed.

Can that tweeter go down to 2,400Hz? Is 600Hz and 4,800 maybe better or to much on the mid? Should I consider using two woofers per cabinet? It doesn't seem necessary to keep up with the mid.

It looks like the cabinet will be flat to around 23Hz. However, the high group delay will make it kind of weird under about 35Hz from what I am seeing. Tuning it really low seems to keep the group delay down over 40Hz. I love some tight low end. That is a must.


Regards,
David

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-I have done many speaker builds before
-I will be needing guidance on software and test mic good for the money, but accurate.
-I didn't know there was crossover design software. Which one is good? I normally look at charts and whatnot for the components or buy pre-made/designed.

Can that tweeter go down to 2,400Hz? Is 600Hz and 4,800 maybe better or to much on the mid? Should I consider using two woofers per cabinet? It doesn't seem necessary to keep up with the mid.

It looks like the cabinet will be flat to around 23Hz. However, the high group delay will make it kind of weird under about 35Hz from what I am seeing. Tuning it really low seems to keep the group delay down over 40Hz. I love some tight low end. That is a must.


Regards,
David

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No idea on your tweeters man, you'll need to lookup some data for those Tractrix horns. You could measure them to find the Fs or go by the crossover point in some speakers they are used in.

Your midrange looks good up to 4800 Hz based on the specsheet! The only consideration is that woofers don't have as good of dispersion as tweeters for high frequency so it would be better to stay towards the lower kHz if possible.

I would recommend a calibrated mic like one from Cross Spectrum Labs. You can get a UMM6 for cheaper elsewhere but then you have to trust the manufacturer's cal file.

For crossover design I am familiar with PCD7 that runs in Excel, which has since been converted into a windows app http://www.speakerdesign.net/WinPCD/
 

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Nice project. Are you going to use subs with these? The reason I'm asking is you could consider more sensitive drivers (to match the horn) for the same cabinet size if the last octave of extension is not required.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
No idea on your tweeters man, you'll need to lookup some data for those Tractrix horns. You could measure them to find the Fs or go by the crossover point in some speakers they are used in.

Your midrange looks good up to 4800 Hz based on the specsheet! The only consideration is that woofers don't have as good of dispersion as tweeters for high frequency so it would be better to stay towards the lower kHz if possible.

I would recommend a calibrated mic like one from Cross Spectrum Labs. You can get a UMM6 for cheaper elsewhere but then you have to trust the manufacturer's cal file.

For crossover design I am familiar with PCD7 that runs in Excel, which has since been converted into a windows app http://www.speakerdesign.net/WinPCD/
Awesome thanks! And true. I forgot about the beaming on higher frequencies.

Regards,
David

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Nice project. Are you going to use subs with these? The reason I'm asking is you could consider more sensitive drivers (to match the horn) for the same cabinet size if the last octave of extension is not required.
I would like these to extend all the way down since they will be used for cinema. I think movies sound better with full ranges all the way around and a good LFE; especially in my room where it low end is spotty. It separates the sounds more and has greater dynamics from what I can hear. It's possible that I just don't like hearing that crossover point on my speakers I have now.

Regards,
David

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Actually, thinking twice, is there a better more efficient option for me on the mids and lows? Sound quality is most important though. If there are decently prices drivers you would suggest that are more efficient with flat frequency responses definitely let me know. I am continuing to look at all options.

I would like the speakers to reach to an f3 under 40Hz though.

I have considered two woofers since they will couple, but I need to find an efficient mid then with good dispersion.

Regards,
David

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Two woofers would help sensitivity of the low end, if you did that and a different midrange you could probably get a big boost in sensitivity. For the woofers you could do two RS180-8 and do a 3.5-way speaker design. This would get you +3dB gain in efficiency and be the same cost as one RS270. For the midrange there is the dome RS52AN-8 which would match the materials of the RS woofers. Depending on what you find out about your horns lower limit, you might even be able to ditch the midrange and do a 2.5-way with two woofers and the horn.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Two woofers would help sensitivity of the low end, if you did that and a different midrange you could probably get a big boost in sensitivity. For the woofers you could do two RS180-8 and do a 3.5-way speaker design. This would get you +3dB gain in efficiency and be the same cost as one RS270. For the midrange there is the dome RS52AN-8 which would match the materials of the RS woofers. Depending on what you find out about your horns lower limit, you might even be able to ditch the midrange and do a 2.5-way with two woofers and the horn.
For a .5-way design would the easiest thing be to just use a 24dB/oct so they are in phase? It seems like they would interfere at the crossover frequency a little. I haven't ever done that, but have used speakers that have that design.

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David

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
The RS225-8 would be a better fit for the size of cabinet I need and low feq. extension it looks like.

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David

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Anyone have a suggestion on port location for it to have the best relationship with the woofers? Anyone know the trade off of having them up high, near the floor, in the back, or etc.? They will be placed right in front of a wall.

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David

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For a .5-way both woofers are below the same LPF but one, the .5, has an extra series inductor as to contribute little to HF and only support LF. Simple as that and no interference.

Bass where a port contributes is far into the omni-directional range, and where wavelengths are quite large so distance from the woofers isn't so important, so port placement matters little. Go for what's aesthetic to you.
 

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Actually, thinking twice, is there a better more efficient option for me on the mids and lows? Sound quality is most important though. If there are decently prices drivers you would suggest that are more efficient with flat frequency responses definitely let me know. I am continuing to look at all options.

I would like the speakers to reach to an f3 under 40Hz though.

I have considered two woofers since they will couple, but I need to find an efficient mid then with good dispersion.
I understand you want 40Hz F3 to have multiple sources of LF rather than a single sub. Have you thought about multiple subs?

Sorry I did forget to ask about acceptable cabinet size to fully define your constraints... As far as bass response is concerned efficiency is roughly proportional to the cube of F3 times the box volume. Thus the box volume and F3 will pretty much fix the woofer sensitivity (which will limit the system sensitivity). You will then have a better idea of the target midrange sensitivity if this is something you want to optimize. Do not forget the system sensitivity need to be a couple dB less than the woofer's due to BSC (4pi to 2pi space). Probably your initial driver suggestions already reflects that.

About the dispersion, I'm really not sure about he horn's directivity but maybe a 6-7in driver's narrower directivity (compared to the 4-incher) will be better matched to the horn at the crossover point (for what it's worth, this is the woofer size the original speaker uses). On the other hand, I don't recall any drivers of this size without breakups below, say, 5-6kHz. The breakup can be dealt with in the XO.

It must have been posted hundred times, but this link could help target some good value drivers of different efficiencies. http://zaphaudio.com/6.5test/. I think high-efficiency pro midranges are out of scope but maybe 89-90db/W/m could be attainable. I'm not sure if it's there but the seas prestige line (CA**RN*) have decent sensitivity. The Dayton woofers are not bad choices either although they traded efficiency for extension/box size.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I was able to start testing out the tweeters. I found that with a 6.5kHz 12dB/Oct butterworth XO, these tweeter are flat from about 3kHz on up. They have a smooth tapering off under that which would be a really good spot at 2kHz to 2.5kHz to cross over the mid. The tweeter actually have great response down to 1kHz, but it sounds better crossed over high.

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David

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I understand you want 40Hz F3 to have multiple sources of LF rather than a single sub. Have you thought about multiple subs?

Sorry I did forget to ask about acceptable cabinet size to fully define your constraints... As far as bass response is concerned efficiency is roughly proportional to the cube of F3 times the box volume. Thus the box volume and F3 will pretty much fix the woofer sensitivity (which will limit the system sensitivity). You will then have a better idea of the target midrange sensitivity if this is something you want to optimize. Do not forget the system sensitivity need to be a couple dB less than the woofer's due to BSC (4pi to 2pi space). Probably your initial driver suggestions already reflects that.

About the dispersion, I'm really not sure about he horn's directivity but maybe a 6-7in driver's narrower directivity (compared to the 4-incher) will be better matched to the horn at the crossover point (for what it's worth, this is the woofer size the original speaker uses). On the other hand, I don't recall any drivers of this size without breakups below, say, 5-6kHz. The breakup can be dealt with in the XO.

It must have been posted hundred times, but this link could help target some good value drivers of different efficiencies. http://zaphaudio.com/6.5test/. I think high-efficiency pro midranges are out of scope but maybe 89-90db/W/m could be attainable. I'm not sure if it's there but the seas prestige line (CA**RN*) have decent sensitivity. The Dayton woofers are not bad choices either although they traded efficiency for extension/box size.
What do you mean by multiple subs? Like using a 10" and 18" and crossing them over, or using two or three in different parts of the room? And why sound wise did you mention it. I am just curious.

Regards,
David

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
For a .5-way both woofers are below the same LPF but one, the .5, has an extra series inductor as to contribute little to HF and only support LF. Simple as that and no interference.

Bass where a port contributes is far into the omni-directional range, and where wavelengths are quite large so distance from the woofers isn't so important, so port placement matters little. Go for what's aesthetic to you.
Just getting back I have been so busy. I tested what you are talking about as best I could. I used the new tweeters I have and found crossed at 6.5k and 12dB/Oct butterworth they are pretty flat to 3kHz and then roll off. I then used the woofer from my current synergy F-10 speaker to test and see what configuration sounds best to me. The extra woofer configurations was another F-10 next to the other. I used two XTI 1002 amplifiers for the testing. I time aligned the tweeter, used a small amount of EQ to flatten the woofer, then tested the following:

1. Three way with a 300Hz X-over on one woofer 24dB/oct, 300Hz to 2.5kHz, on second woofer, and the tweeter on up.

2. 2.5-way with the extra woofer crossed over at 250Hz 12dB/oct, 2.5kHz x-over

3. 2-way with a 2.5kHz x over

4. Dual woofers 2-way 2.5kHz

Now I had never tested what a .5 sounds like. It was a difficult toss up between 2.5-way and 3-way for me sound quality-wise. At low volumes, the 2.5-way design sounds very nice with tighter lows and low mids. However, as the volume rises and one gets off-axis, the midrange clarity went away. The three way setup did not have as impressive lows, but the mids were much clearer at high volumes and off axis. So either one has a slight trade off in my tests. What I am thinking is using two woofers in a straight-up three way configuration would be pretty sweet. I enjoy 24dB/oct crossovers more after switching back and forth as well. Except, the only way to achieve a flat tweeter response was the 12dB butterworth at 6.5kHz. It would need a ton of EQ if crossed over with a greater slope.

Is it a pain to build 48dB/oct XO filters and what do you think of them? I just assumed I don't want to use that many components.

Regards,
David

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