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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello to all,
I have had to redo my calibration after I had to replace the amp in my Klipsch sub 10. Upon relearning all the steps involved I discovered that I had not done much right my first time years ago. Somehow I had managed to get some filters into the BFD that improved the sound and I just left it at that, knowing that I did not have it right but not really knowing what to ask. It would take me too long to post my trials and tribulations from then and now to go into those details!!
I think I have done the procedure correctly this time but I don't know how to interpret the results I got as to what I should set the crossover at in my Denon AVR-791 This is what I got.
The first graph is with the crossover set at 80 hz.. The purple is the main+sub, the green is mains only, the blue is sub only.
Ron
 

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The mains only graph looks to be with the mains set as full range, and their extension seems just as good as the sub. The mains plus sub looks pretty odd, might be worth switching the polarity on the sub to see how the trace looks then, and making sure the AVR crossover settings for the mains are correct - are you adjusting the bass management crossover for the mains or the LFE low pass (which only affects the LFE output)?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Hi John,
I have the mains set as small. I have 2 sets of front speakers. One pair is klipsch f-3's (which extend down to 35Hz) and the other pair is Polk Monitor 10(which extend down to 25Hz). Is that why the graph looks like that?
I reversed the polarity on the sub and here is that graph. The sub 10 only has a 0 or 180 switch.
I not sure I understand the question about my AVR settings for the mains being correct. I thought I was testing to see which crossover in my AVR is best for the integration of the mains and sub. I am trying to determine if my crossover setting should be 40,60,80,90,100,110,120,150,200,250.
Ron
 

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The reversed polarity doesn't have as much of a dip through the 100Hz and upwards region, so that seems a little better - it is all still a bit odd though. If your mains are set to small then the measurement of the main on its own should show the effect of the processor's crossover filter, so the response should be rolling off below 80 or below 120 for the graphs you posted, but it actually continues flat. That might be because the speakers are set as large rather than small, or because the mode the processor is set to is not applying bass management, or because the signal being fed to the speakers is not going through the bass management of the processor (e.g. connected to an amp that is driving the speakers). If the mains are set as small and the signal is being fed through the processor, then check the mode the processor is using to make sure that it uses the sub and applies the crossover filter.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I have my laptop connected via the V-aux on the Denon AVR-791. You have to go Manual setup then audio setup where you come to 2ch Direct/Stereo. Here is where you say "yes" that you have a sub. The default is for it to be "no"! (Part of my Trials and Tribulations).
Here also is an option for front to be large or small. The other settings are
Setting Custom or basic. (I have it on custom)
Front Small or large. (This has to be changed to small after running audyssey multeq.)
(this 2 ch setting stays at large and no subwoofer even if you change it in the other setup menu (Another T&T)
SW mode LFE or LFE+main (I have it on LFE)
Crossover Choices are 40,60,80,90,100,110,120,150,200,250
(This is where I changed the setting to get the different measurements for the graphs)
There are then the distances and levels for the front.

There is then an auto surround mode which I set to "off".

Then there is EQ Customize Bypass L/R
Flat
Manual which are set as used (other option not used)
Audyssey settings
Multeq off
Dynamic EQ off
Dynamic Volume off
 

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Doesn't look like a crossover is being applied to that measurement, so stereo with sub set to 'Yes' is probably the right mode to use.

If you want to see exactly what the processor is doing in the various modes and the processor has line output for each channel, you can just connect individual line outputs to the soundcard input and see the signal that is being fed to the speaker, very easy then to see if a crossover is being applied.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
After looking at the back of my Denon AVR-791 from the manual, I guess I have to say the only line out it has is the subwoofer. Can that line out be connected to the soundcard?
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
So to recap and see if I understand.
Of my three graphs, which are Ok and which are not? I have the sub only, mains only and sub+mains. Do any of them look right or is there no bass management active throughout?
It has also occured to me that I have the 2 pair of front speakers connected in series. I have done that because the Denon AVR I have only allows 7.1 or 5.1 with Zone 2. Would that intefere with the bass management from performing correctly?
Thanks for your time,
Ron
 

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The subwoofer measurement looks normal. The mains only measurement doesn't show any sign of bass management (assuming it is made with the sub turned off or disconnected). For the main + sub it is difficult to be sure, but I suspect the mains are being driven full range.

I don't really follow how the mains are connected? Life gets a bit confusing if more than one speaker is active at a time when measuring, do you have two speakers running on each channel?
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Yes. I had said in a previous post that the 4 front speakers were connected in series. Don't know if I used correct terminology but yes.
So it would be safe to assume that I need to try just a pair at a time. It will be somewhat of a chore to get to all the speaker wiring. It is a jumble behind there. (But a whole lot less now with HDMI):) I have the upper speaker wires going into a wall jack, up the wall and down thru the ceiling. Switching the wires around will be a chore:(. But I will do it because I would really like to make sure that I have optimum crossover.
I do get a kick out of your software. It really is incredible. I'll be back at ya.
Ron
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
In case anyone is wondering how I ended up with my speakers hooked up this way.
I had a Kenwood receiver that had an A/B switch that I first connected 4 fronts. But when I played both at the same time the output would drop way too much. With my Polk speakers were the diagrams on the other way to hook them up in series and run all of them on just A. I tried it and all the speakers played at regular volume so I kept it that way.
Replaced Kenwood with a Yamaha that had an A/B switch. When using both A and B at same time the output did not drop so I connected normally.
Enter my current Denon. It does not have an A/B switch. You either run 7.1 or 5.1 and assign the back channels to Zone2. I want the back channels, so voila, I am back to using the series connection for my 4 fronts. Never would have thought it was intefering with the bass management.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I have just one pair of speakers to the receiver now. I took some measurements but it did not seem to have changed any from the previous graphs. In trying to learn some more about my Denon avr and its confusing menu system and setup, I found an Audyssey Setup Guide in the AVS forum that I read through. I found this paragraph in it:

"Raise the low-pass filter (LPF) setting—usually incorrectly identified as a crossover—of the LFE subwoofer in the receiver / processor to 120Hz, if allowed. If the manufacturer’s default setting for the “LPF of LFE” is not 120 Hz, raising it allows the full LFE content to pass to the subwoofer."

In my Denon avr base setting menu, the setting for LPF for LFE was 250Hz. (as set by audyssey or the receiver itself. I did not set it). I changed that to 120 Hz and my measurements now seem to show the effects of bass management. But I've been wrong before! But here are some graphs. Are these showing bass management?
I have some other questions about measuring. Should Multeq be on or off? Should I be just measuring 1 speaker at a time, ie left and right only? Should I setting the lower limit of the sweep signal to something other than 0?
Thanks so much.
Ron
 

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Does look to be working, though not sure why altering the LFE LPF setting would have an effect on that (it should only affect content that comes from the LFE channel on discs).

A minor point on graph scaling, better to use 45 as the lower limit rather than 20, makes it easier to compare the plots with those we usually see.

Does your sub have a crossover of its own that is not bypassed? The 120 and 200 AVR settings had very little effect on the sub measurements, which makes me wonder whether the sub has an 80Hz crossover of its own in play. The crossover in the sub should normally be set to bypass (or to its highest frequency) when using the AVR for bass management.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
The lowpass knob on the back of my sub has always been turned all the way to right (120Hz).
I still wonder if something is not right in the Denon setup. In reading through other posts and discussions , there is one in which a comment is made "Do you have one of those receivers where the crossover is only active with Dolby Digital?" Is that possible with mine?
I have taken a couple of measurements with seperate Left and right channel signals and they look shifted.
Does this show anything?
 

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Post #16 showed your mains reacting normally to crossover changes, so seems to be running normally. Left and right are pretty much never identical, it would be rare to find a room and placement so symmetrical that the measurements from both channels were the same.
 
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