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Discussion Starter #21
Thanks Dean-

As I said, I will audition at dealer on 18" risers and if successful will audition here. My big fear is woofer is designed to be close to floor and raised 18" will change woofer frequency response (up to 500hz at crossover!). Plan to measure response with REW at dealer.

I do have 4' to rear wall and several GIK panels which I will place behind/to side of EM ESLs and see if that helps with side wall distance. Also may try plywood sheet behind drape in front of left wall window. And so forth.

I am covered with subs and room correction- in photo you can see a Rhythmik D15SE 15" sub in right front corner; there is another in left rear corner. Rythmik has a servo system and the planar people on their thread say planars and Rythmik work together. I have a Mcintosh MX150 processor with Lyngdorf RoomPerfect room correction.

Here's hoping!
 

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Peter, I’m just going to say this one more time. STOP TRYING TO MAKE THIS WORK. ESL’s are great speakers and will sound great anywhere, even nearfield on a computer desk (someone in the world will like it). The Point is that any dipole speaker needs room to breathe on ALL sides in order for them to be at their best. Panels will not help that useless they can magically trap the sound and release it 30milliseconds later without changing the frequency.

Please listen to what everyone is telling you.

For all their magnificent looks and enthralling sound, the EM ESLs have a trifecta of idiosyncrasies that might make them unsuitable for some home theaters. For example, to sound their best, the dipolar electrostatic panels need to be a relatively large distance away from the front wall. MartinLogan recommends using 0.618 times your room’s ceiling height as the formula for finding an optimal distance from the center of the curved panel to the wall behind the speakers. In my case, with my room’s standard 8-foot-high ceiling, the distance was around 59.3 inches—or just shy of 5 feet into the room. Considering my Samsung plasma is mounted on the wall, that location creates a considerable amount of basically unusable floor space between the screen and the speakers. You can calculate the distance from the side walls by dividing the width of your room in inches by 18 and then multiplying the quotient by 5. In my room, that put the center of the panels a little over 46 inches away from the side walls. This placement turned out to be just about perfect from a sound standpoint, especially after I angled the speakers in a couple of inches and then adjusted the rake angle (the amount of front-to-back tilt) by extending the front spikes about half a turn in order to lift the placement of vocals for two-channel music listening.
Of course, once they’re your speakers, you can place them anywhere you like. MartinLogan suggests, though, that you keep the EM ESLs a minimum of 24 inches away from both the front wall behind the speakers and the side walls.

Read more at http://www.soundandvision.com/content/martinlogan-electromotion-esl-speaker-system-page-2#wWx67B18c3M1CXAH.99
 

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Discussion Starter #23
The race is over.

I spent yesterday afternoon moving my sofa back, my MLP chairs to the right- all to get a sightline to the bottom of the left EM ESL. It all got rather weird and the furniture just didn't work in the room. Wife was out whole time fortunately. And as I am retired, I spend alot of time during the day on the couch reading paper, doing crosword, internet, etc. And this puts sofa arm squarely in front of left Martin Logan. So no matter what I do, this room can't work because of one sofa arm!

Everyone with a few exceptions has told me this repeatedly- must see/hear lower woofer section, side wall are too close, "planars need room to breath!" and so forth.

Disappointed dealer and probably some here as I never did the test there or in my den.

As I no longer have credibility with posters, I will only post again with actual new speakers in my den.

Chastised, but still searching!

Thank you everyone for all your valuable input.
 

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As I no longer have credibility with posters, I will only post again with actual new speakers in my den.
There's no credibility issue, just some concern you were proceeding headlong down a trail that was a dead end. Thankfully you realized it before an expensive mistake was made. Either way, don't feel like you have to retreat into the dark. It's not like that at HTS - we don't play those games here. Feel free to post to your hearts content.
 

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+Jman.
Everyone here is typically positive in the advice given, with the advisee's best interest in mind. I think that was the case here. The concern was that you would have spent considerable money on a set of speakers and seen only a fraction of the potential. Using planars just for the sake of using planars just seems counterintuitive with the limitations you have. For example, it's possible with room treatments and ribbon tweeters you may find much better results. In "your" room. In my case, I know that even if I found some super mega awesome sounding bookshelf speakers, they won't work in my cavernous room. All dynamics would be lost. Therefore I won't even look there(prefer towers anyway) Point is, your credibility is not in question, and like Jim said, post away!!! Most of us have had a few spirited debates here, but very rarely have I seen a hostile environment. It's hard to tell sometimes if people want advice or verification. I'd be more worried with radio silence in the thread. Looking forward to what you do.
Happy posting.


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Peter, this might be an option for you. This company does have dipole options but the dipoles may not work for you. The BMR model is (I think) right for you. Ribbon tweeter, great extension, and it can be made in a sealed box so it can be placed close to the side wall and stands will make them clear the couch. Or you can even talk to the owner and he could maybe make a model of the slims that might work for you. PLUS the company (SALK) that makes the cabinets for philharmonicaudio make some of the best Cabinets for Rythmik Subs in the WORLD!!! Both Speakers and Sub can be made of the same material for a perfect Match.

http://philharmonicaudio.com/



Here are the slims.


And the Rythmik SUB!!!
We have built many custom subwoofers over the years for all kinds of applications. But since Rythmik introduced their Direct Servo Technology, we've pretty much limited subwoofer production to Rythmik-based designs. They are simply too good.

It takes a lot of air movement to generate deep bass. And there is just as much energy coming off the rear of the subwoofer cone as there is initiated by the front of the cone. The result is a tremendous amount of energy being directed back into the subwoofer cabinet. This energy can easily create cabinet resonances and can cloud the clarity of the bass response.

We address cabinet resonance in two ways. First, with our Rythmik 15" builds, we use 1 1/2" walls rather than the standard 3/4" walls. This added mass lowers cabinet resonances to extremely low levels. We also add very substantial bracing to further reduce the chances of cabinet wall resonances. The result is extremely clean, precise and musical deep bass.

When set up properly, the sub should never call attention to itself. But your system will play significantly deeper than before and the sound will be very clean, accurate and musical...which is how it should be.
 

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Also, +1 to Jman. Don't ever be afraid to bounce an idea of the people here. With rare exceptions, everyone is here because they read the forum rules and agree with the philosophy behind them. While we were concerned that you might be making a tactically unwise decision, rather than flame you for it we are much more likely to ask how you tackled issues that arose if you had decided to go all the way down that road... and offer advice when you ran into various walls (in your case almost literally).

This is most of why I like HTS.
 

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As I no longer have credibility with posters, I will only post again with actual new speakers in my den.
Hi Peter,
Not quite sure how you came to such a conclusion. Many folks gave their opinions and well meaning/sincere advice, but in the end, the only one that matters should be yours.
I, for one, based on my knowledge of physics and hearing perception, think the MLs might have worked just fine, especially elevated a bit. Ideally you would listen to the speakers themselves in your room, in lieu of internet opinion polling, but alas, this is not always possible.
Best of luck with your travails ;-).

cheers
 

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Discussion Starter #30
I just returned to this thread today and appreciate hearing it's ok to post even if you aren't about to purchase a speaker. I have a financial problem which will take a couple of months but am still thinking.

I still want to get a planar working here, I know, I know.

As I learned from all of you, the two problems with ML EM ESLs in my room are, first, front wall with 110" screen is only 11' 9" wide so not possible to move speakers inboard therefore max distance from side of speaker to side walls would be only 1 1/2 feet. Maybe with use of GIK panel or other acoustic treatments could make this work if not optimally? Distance behind speakers would be 4' so that is ok.

Second issue was sofa arm blocking woofer of left speaker. The ML 8" woofer handles all frequencies below 500hz. As midrange begins at 250hz (midrange is 250hz-7500hz where most of vocal and instrumental fundamentals reside) lower midrange of left speaker will be attenuated and the two speakers can probably never gel.

I have a new love at same price point as ML- Eminent Technology LFT- 8b. Its 8" woofer handles frequencies from 180hz and down. According to a review its midrange panel (above sofa arm) rolls off slowly at 180hz so I should hear all the midrange and below.

Might work?
 

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On paper, the LFT-8b could work.

As for making the the ESL's work, I think it is possible too... but it will cost more money to get the room right (adding treatments and such), and even then they might not get to their full potential. But getting away from an open-back design and getting them running really well will likely outperform the ESL's performing at 70-80% of their best and for less money overall.

Don't abandon planar drivers. Just try to find them in a box, like linked above.
 

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I forgot all about this, but it might work for you... ML used to make a pair of ESLs that were for surrounds (they were full sized panels, but no woofers), and mounted on the walls, and you angled them outward. If these are still available this might allow you to get them up to clear the furniture. I have never heard them, and I don't how they would sound compared to the ones you are looking at, but it is possible they might do the job for you.
 

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As I learned from all of you, the two problems with ML EM ESLs in my room are, first, front wall with 110" screen is only 11' 9" wide so not possible to move speakers inboard therefore max distance from side of speaker to side walls would be only 1 1/2 feet.
You didn't learn that from me :).
With a conventional dome/cone type speaker and subsequent polar radiation, that close to sidewall is detrimental. An acoustically large dipole panel like the ML, has strong nulls to the side, so while not ideal, 1.5' should be just fine.

Second issue was sofa arm blocking woofer of left speaker. The ML 8" woofer handles all frequencies below 500hz. As midrange begins at 250hz (midrange is 250hz-7500hz where most of vocal and instrumental fundamentals reside) lower midrange of left speaker will be attenuated and the two speakers can probably never gel.
Again, while not ideal, physics is on your side. An 8" driver is omnidirectional at 500hz...and below. They don't beam like flashlights. A 500 Hz wavelength is around 27" long. By 250 Hz it 54". Suddenly the sofa side doesn't look so large. The waves simply wrap around it. It might not be a bad idea to use a stand to raise the speaker a bit, but you may be overestimating the effect.
Quite frankly I see no reason the MLs can't work with a little tweaking, aka a 8-12" stand. Maybe an excuse to buy an inexpensive mini-sub and improve your bass smoothness room wide as well.

cheers
 

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Discussion Starter #34
Thsi may take several months but I am inclined to purchase the Eminent Technology 8b's due to 180hz crossover from woofer to midrange panel. Would have preferred the shorter/less wide ML's but the 500hz crossover makes me doubt a good midrange from the left behind the sofa arm speaker.

Will come back to this thread after I have made purchase with results and photos.

Thank you everybody for your comments!
 

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AJ is correct, dipoles have strong nulls at their sides. Combined with 4" absorption panels, the speakers will "see" the side wall at a distance greater than the physical 1.5 ft.

Eminent Technology seems to be making a splash in the panel world, although I seriously doubt the lower crossover point will buy you as much clarity as you think you might be missing due to the couch arm. I do know the the ML EM-ESL is a fantastic music/HT speaker as I have heard them and seen multiple measurements in a separate music and home theater rooms.

Good luck with your journey, Peter, and please let us know how it ends.

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Eminent Tech has been around for quite a while (1982). They are actually based right here in T-Town. One of the Dr.'s here bought an older pair off the internet for next to nothing. He met Bruce Thigpen (he's the guy behind ET) at a party one night & they got to talking about the speakers. His wound up needing a complete refit. Bruce told him to bring them over & he did it for free! This particular Dr. is really into audio...he says they are the best speakers he has ever heard. I need to mosey on over there one day & have a looksee! He is very frugal with advertising $'s. Maybe he has a pair we could review!
 

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Discussion Starter #37
As I said, I am a few months away budget wise from Eminent Technology purchase but based on what I have learned and the crossover point of the woofer (180hz vs Martin Logan 500hz) behind the sofa arm, am convinced this can work. I also found another company as well- the Sanders model 11- their smaller model has woofer crossover at 170hz, BUT with required woofer amplifier, priced somewhere around $13k so that's out.

Hope this doesn't take until Christmas.

As always thank you for your input. I will report back.

Peter
 
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