Home Theater Forum and Systems banner

1 - 20 of 32 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi All,

I know that Elektra N8 is under development, but then again so is every solution. :D

I am about to create a 120" BOC screen for my Epson 8100 with good light control. (dark but not a bat cave) So far I have tested raw BOC and N8.5 flat + poly. Overall the N8.5 + poly looks a lot better than the raw BOC, but I feel I can improve the blacks a little by dropping to N8 while improving the whites with a reflective additive. (The N8.5 is Tiddler's Beginner's Delight)

Has anyone seen both Elektra and Scorpion? I'm wondering if the AAA in Scorpion provide a higher uniform reflectivity than the silver metallic in Elektra.

I was also thinking of adding some polycrylic to either mix for added sheen, has anyone already done this test?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Oh, I was also thinking of using UPW glossy as the base coat for an added glow. I could be way off here, just a newbie getting his feet wet with ideas.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,242 Posts
Poly... glow... and thinking all DIY paint applications are always under development... Hmm, let me guess where you came from?! ;)

I'm not sure if Don's Elektra mixes are still under development or not. I thought he had them nailed down now. As far as everything else, nope, all are finished products and you won't see them changing weekly, monthly or yearly. The reason is simple, we did our homework and they work, so no reason to change things.

If you're asking if anyone here has seen Scorpion and Elektra, seeing this is were they were created the answer would be yes!

BTW, welcome to the Shack! Hopefully we can get you away from poly and all the other stuff that seems to be all the rage but really isn't the best things to be using.

You seem to be stuck on sheen/gain too. The last thing you want is sheen, and poly is just a cheap quick fix that tends to create more problems than it solves.

One good place to start for some answers to a lot of common misconceptions is the stickies.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,242 Posts
You didn't mention how far back the projector is. I ballpark your fL at around 17fL of brightness at the screen for a 120" diagonal screen image.

Right off the bat you can forget about gain, you don't need it. Gain isn't a knob for adjusting the image like some seem to act. It's a tool used to achieve the required brightness for a screen size and setting. If you have the required brightness you don't need gain, all that will do is reduce your viewing cone, increase the potential to hot spot, and too much gain can cause color shifting. Think of gain the same as keystone correction and digital lens shifting- if you need a little you can get away with it without giving up image quality, or at least not that much. Too much though and now things are worse instead of better.

You certainly can handle an N8 gray, even a Black Widow. The question is whether you are an inky black person or a whiter than white person... sounds like you like your blacks nice and dark. With that in mind and based on your projector and the amount of fL we're dealing with I recommend Scorpion or Elektra N8, either one- they both perform the same. Don developed the Elektra series to be a little easier for people and since Luminious White is hard for some people to find in quart cans it is another option.

If you are going to roll, don't do any two roller thing either and please throw any 'hotdog' size rollers away and get yourself as low nap high quality roller cover like a Purdy brand.
 

·
Moderator Emeritus
Joined
·
3,772 Posts
Hi smuggs2001, welcome to the forum! :wave:

I know that Elektra N8 is under development, but then again so is every solution. :D
That statement is only marginally true for the completed formulae here at HTS. If we find something that would improve an existing mix we would certainly amend a formula if need be, but by and large we don't publish a formula here until it is "ready for prime time". Due to Elektra™ being the answer to some users immediate problems we did "jump the gun" a bit, but we have it in the Developers area to show that it is still experimental. The Elektra™ N8 and N8.5 mixes are ready for use, but they haven't been tested with side-by-side photographic comparisons with similar shade paints and have not been tested for gain yet; that is why they are still in the Developers forum. We back up our mixes with hard performance data using industry standards, not supposition, guesses or wishful thinking.

I am about to create a 120" BOC screen for my Epson 8100 with good light control. (dark but not a bat cave) So far I have tested raw BOC and N8.5 flat + poly. Overall the N8.5 + poly looks a lot better than the raw BOC, but I feel I can improve the blacks a little by dropping to N8 while improving the whites with a reflective additive. (The N8.5 is Tiddler's Beginner's Delight)
If your BOC is similar to the stuff I got from JoAnn fabrics, the uncoated side is N9.2 and quite neutral, the coated side is N9 and just falls outside of our tight neutrality standards only by the smallest of margins. I don't remember testing the N8.5 gray formula that Tiddler published so I can't comment on it's true N level or neutrality, but I would guess it would be close. As for adding poly (usually satin Minwax Polycrylic water-based polyurethane), I haven't tested that yet, but Mech (a senior member of our screen formula design team) is finishing up some poly testing and the data should be posted soon. Adding poly makes a mix a bit more translucent, but it's main attribute is to add more surface gloss to a mix. One must be careful when adding poly to a mix since too much will cause hot spotting.

Going with a darker mix than N8.5 will improve blacks, but it will come at the cost of slightly dimmer whites unless the viewing cone of the mix is also diminished. This is why side-by-side testing of whites and grays doesn't work, the whites will always be whiter on a white screen and the blacks will always be blacker on a gray screen (the darker the gray screen the darker the blacks). This assumes that either a PJ is being used that has problems showing black levels (most do) or that there is some ambient light present when viewing that is playing hobb with image contrast. You may read about screen mixes elsewhere that promise darker blacks while retaining white whites and a wide viewing cone, this goes against the physical laws of nature and simply isn't true. If a screen darkerns blacks it also darkens whites to the same extent. The key to understanding how a gray screen works so well is that a type of optical illusion happens that makes us see white objects in the image (snow, white clothing) as being truly white when they are in fact the same shade of gray as the screen is. This only works when the gray screen is the brightest "white" being illuminated by the PJ.

Has anyone seen both Elektra and Scorpion? I'm wondering if the AAA in Scorpion provide a higher uniform reflectivity than the silver metallic in Elektra.
I am working on that right now, but all this testing has to happen during our "free time" since doing this research isn't our job, but rather our hobby.

I would suspect that the AAA-F used in Scorpion™ is a better reflector than the CSMS used in Elektra™, but there is more CSMS in Elektra™ than AAA-F in Scorpion™ so my guess would be that they are similar in performance at N8. The actual data will be reported here when we have it. :T

I was also thinking of adding some polycrylic to either mix for added sheen, has anyone already done this test?
Not to my knowledge. The thing is that poly does yellow over time as most clear finishes do. Whether it will discolor a mix when incorporated into the mix itself rather than used as a top coat is still unknown. Be advised that adding poly to any of our mixes will only add specular gain through increased surface sheen/gloss and thus will diminish the viewing cone of the mix and potentially make the mix hot spot.

Oh, I was also thinking of using UPW glossy as the base coat for an added glow. I could be way off here, just a newbie getting his feet wet with ideas.
None of our mixes are translucent enough for a base coat finish to matter. Painting over a glossy surface will reduce the "grip" of the top coat and it will be more easily damaged. This is the main reason we don't recommend the use of Thrifty White hardboard like another forum does. I have used this material to make a screen (my first screen was Silverfire) and I can literally scratch off the paint with a fingernail to leave a as-new surface on the Thrifty White. While no one intentionally scratches their screen, the use of Thrifty White (or any other glossy surface) will result in a screen that is more easily damaged, even by cleaning.

Addendum:
To show how slowly I think and type, Bill answered twice while I was writing this. :rofl:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thanks for the extensive and thoughtful replies guys.

My old 96" screen is Joann's BOC. I painted the N8.5+poly on that and was quite pleased. The N8.5+poly looked better than raw N8.5 due to the "gloss" effect you mention, almost like a piece of glass over the screen. Joann only caries 54" wide material however, so for 120" I will have to order on the internet or use drywall. Any suggestions on places to buy BOC in 60"+ and/or if drywall would be a better choice? I'm guessing that BOC is a lot easier to setup but a little more expensive. ie: $30 vs $20.

How much paint will I need for a 120" screen? 1 gallon?

I will be rolling the mix as I don't own a spray gun or compressor. Projector is Epson 8100 in brightest mode (living/dynamic) approx 15' from screen hung from 8.5' ceiling. The walls and ceiling are the same medium brown. From that you can guess that I am likely more a "bright" guy than an "black" guy. Blacks look good to me when the letterbox bars on 2.35:1 turn from a distracting grey to a blackish hue to blend in with the black velvet frame. Essentially, when the blacks are dark enough to not look washed out I'm happy.

On the flip side, I know I would not be happy with a dull/darker image and grey whites. (I like the plasma look) Having tested the N8.5, that is the darkest I would normally go, but I've read that the Elektra/Scorpion mixes will produce deeper blacks and whiter whites than a flat white screen... which to me suggests that an Elektra/Scorpion N8 will have whites as bright as a raw N8.5 paint due to the metallics. Is that true, or should I stick with the N8.5 even with Elektra/Scorpion mix?

Finally, and I mean no offense to any mix creator(s), if Elektra performs as well as Scorpion, is easier to get the materials, and costs less... why would anyone ever use Scorpion?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,242 Posts
Thanks for the extensive and thoughtful replies guys.

My old 96" screen is Joann's BOC. I painted the N8.5+poly on that and was quite pleased. The N8.5+poly looked better than raw N8.5 due to the "gloss" effect you mention, almost like a piece of glass over the screen. Joann only caries 54" wide material however, so for 120" I will have to order on the internet or use drywall. Any suggestions on places to buy BOC in 60"+ and/or if drywall would be a better choice? I'm guessing that BOC is a lot easier to setup but a little more expensive. ie: $30 vs $20.

There are many places online to order larger width material. RoseBrand is one place to check, also google is your friend ;)

How much paint will I need for a 120" screen? 1 gallon?

A quart should be more than enough for two good coats.

I will be rolling the mix as I don't own a spray gun or compressor. Projector is Epson 8100 in brightest mode (living/dynamic) approx 15' from screen hung from 8.5' ceiling. The walls and ceiling are the same medium brown. From that you can guess that I am likely more a "bright" guy than an "black" guy. Blacks look good to me when the letterbox bars on 2.35:1 turn from a distracting grey to a blackish hue to blend in with the black velvet frame. Essentially, when the blacks are dark enough to not look washed out I'm happy.

First let me say that I fully acknowledge the advantages of spraying, but I firmly believe any good application is one that isn't restricted to spray only or rolling only. Everything you are talking about or that will be suggested here can be rolled or sprayed.

The rest of what you said though did confuse me. I honestly can't say that by telling me your walls and ceiling are a medium brown that you are a "bright guy". I really don't know how that comes into play in that respect. It sounds to me more like you have a room that's better suited for a dedicated HT room, but I can't tell whether a person is a white screen or gray screen person just from that. You kind of contradicted yourself right after that though. I'd say you're a middle of the road kind of guy that wants good whites and good blacks where neither look washed out or dingy.

On the flip side, I know I would not be happy with a dull/darker image and grey whites. (I like the plasma look) Having tested the N8.5, that is the darkest I would normally go, but I've read that the Elektra/Scorpion mixes will produce deeper blacks and whiter whites than a flat white screen... which to me suggests that an Elektra/Scorpion N8 will have whites as bright as a raw N8.5 paint due to the metallics. Is that true, or should I stick with the N8.5 even with Elektra/Scorpion mix?

No matter how great a front projector can be, it will never look like a plasma screen TV no matter how much certain people want to say so. Like I said, front projection can look great, but if you actually set a plasma HDTV next to one the projector setup isn't going to look like the plasma. Projectors are more film like, that's why people use them for Home Theater setups. Don't get me wrong, you can still get a great image with a projector setup, but it's not a plasma.

With that said, I think I know what type of image you like. I'd probably go with C&S or Elektra N8.5 based on what you just said.

And yes you are right, Scorpion/Elektra N8 would have whites on par with an N8.5 or slightly lighter screen while the blacks stay rooted at the N8 level. Still your brightest 'plasma like' image will be with the N8.5 or C&S.

Finally, and I mean no offense to any mix creator(s), if Elektra performs as well as Scorpion, is easier to get the materials, and costs less... why would anyone ever use Scorpion?
To that last part... well I still can get tons of Luminous White where I live, while others are saying their Sherwin Williams quit carrying it altogether. So what is easy for one person may not be for another. It's not a matter of one being better as a means of competition, it's just another option is all. Over here we don't operate by hype and one thing has to be better than another. Our goal is that all our mixes and applications are D65 neutral, are diffusive, and easy to apply yet perform as good or better than the non-neutral complex concoctions out there.

Right now I'd say to make some test panels that are N8 and N8.5 and compare them. Make sure you recalibrate if you were using a lighter screen or you won't really get anything out of any comparison tests you try. If you want someone to just tell you what to use whether it's what you want or not or like or not, then you're on the wrong forum. If you want to know why a screen works and does what it does, and from there make an informed decision on what suites your needs the best... then stick around and don't be afraid to ask any questions!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Sorry to confuse you about the white vs black part... I meant to say that because I watch everything in brightest mode rather than cinema mode I choose brightness/whites over true color/blacks.

As far as comparing Elektra N8 vs N8.5 on test panels, can I create any batch size of mix as long as the ratios remain the same? I'm assuming I can create the mix for C&S N9 then add the correct ratios of N6 gray paint to try out C&S N9, EN8.5, and EN8.
 

·
Moderator Emeritus
Joined
·
3,772 Posts
Thanks for the extensive and thoughtful replies guys.
Thank you, we try.

My old 96" screen is Joann's BOC. I painted the N8.5+poly on that and was quite pleased. The N8.5+poly looked better than raw N8.5 due to the "gloss" effect you mention, almost like a piece of glass over the screen. Joann only caries 54" wide material however, so for 120" I will have to order on the internet or use drywall. Any suggestions on places to buy BOC in 60"+ and/or if drywall would be a better choice? I'm guessing that BOC is a lot easier to setup but a little more expensive. ie: $30 vs $20.
A quick search with my favorite search engine (not Google) popped up Carl's Place. They sell pre-cut 60"x108" (5'x9') BOC screens for $24.99.

How much paint will I need for a 120" screen? 1 gallon?
My usual recommendation is a total of 1 fl. oz. of paint per square foot of screen. This is just a rule-of-thumb and sometimes I only use about half this much, but it's generally close to what I usually use. For your 120" 16:9 screen that comes out to 43 fl. oz.; the standard mix of Cream&Sugar™ comes out at 48 fl. oz. and if you would want to try Elektra™ N8.5 just add 2 1/4 fl. oz. of N6 gray paint (formula in the Elektra™ thread) to the standard C&S™ mix for a total of 50 1/4 fl. oz..

There are no fancy painting instructions required for our mixes. No special "duster" coats and such. Apply enough paint (usually two rolled coats) until the screen has an even appearance when dry and you're done.

I will be rolling the mix as I don't own a spray gun or compressor. Projector is Epson 8100 in brightest mode (living/dynamic) approx 15' from screen hung from 8.5' ceiling. The walls and ceiling are the same medium brown. From that you can guess that I am likely more a "bright" guy than an "black" guy. Blacks look good to me when the letterbox bars on 2.35:1 turn from a distracting grey to a blackish hue to blend in with the black velvet frame. Essentially, when the blacks are dark enough to not look washed out I'm happy.
Me too. :T

On the flip side, I know I would not be happy with a dull/darker image and grey whites. (I like the plasma look) Having tested the N8.5, that is the darkest I would normally go, but I've read that the Elektra/Scorpion mixes will produce deeper blacks and whiter whites than a flat white screen... which to me suggests that an Elektra/Scorpion N8 will have whites as bright as a raw N8.5 paint due to the metallics. Is that true, or should I stick with the N8.5 even with Elektra/Scorpion mix?
I wouldn't be happy with gray-looking whites either, but as I tried to explain before, whites that are actually a light gray can look white to us via an optical illusion that fools our brain into thinking light grays are really white. The point where whites begin to be perceived as gray is subjective though.

I would guess that our N8 mixes would have similar whites to a regular N8.5 gray screen; but that is only a guess. We will know more later this summer. Sorry I can't give you a straight yes/no answer (yet! ;)).

Finally, and I mean no offense to any mix creator(s), if Elektra performs as well as Scorpion, is easier to get the materials, and costs less... why would anyone ever use Scorpion?
No offense taken, it is a logical question! If one already has enough Black Widow™ mix left over it would be simpler to make Scorpion™ N8 (just add it to C&S™). Some folks don't want to special order the AAA-F needed to make Scorpion™ and have a Michael's local to them so the Craft Smart Metallic Silver used in making C&S™, and thus Elektra™, is a fast local purchase. It's all about the availability of ingredients and if people are willing to mail-order paints if necessary.
 

·
Moderator Emeritus
Joined
·
3,772 Posts
As far as comparing Elektra N8 vs N8.5 on test panels, can I create any batch size of mix as long as the ratios remain the same? I'm assuming I can create the mix for C&S N9 then add the correct ratios of N6 gray paint to try out C&S N9, EN8.5, and EN8.
Yes, that should work fine. Of course, the more accurate you are to getting the ratios correct the closer the result will be to the full mix.

Black Widow™ and Cream&Sugar™ don't need to be measured at all when making the full mix quantities, simply add containers of paint together and stir. This isn't by accident. Scorpion™ N8 is simply half BW™ and half C&S™ so no true measuring needs to be done. With Elektra™ the only ingredient that needs to be measured is the N6 gray paint that is added as a "shade adjuster" and the amount added doesn't need to be measured in milliliters, but more like 1/4 fl. oz. amounts; and getting the amount wrong will not spoil the mix, but rather produce a slightly lighter or darker shade of mix. Again this is not by accident. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,242 Posts
Don you and I must paint very differently ;)

A quart of paint will cover 87-100 square feet with one coat. A 120" diagonal screen comes out to be 43 square feet, so a quart should do two coats and I can say that personally the way I paint that comes out just about right. The bigger the nap of the roller cover, the more paint it will drink up when you first load the roller.

Also if you paint a surface that hasn't previously been painted, some will drink in for that first coat. If you prime first this won't be a problem.

As Don mentioned Black Widow comes out to be 48 ounces, and Scorpion is a 50/50 mix of C&S plus BW, so if you go that route you'll have more than enough paint, no need to worry there.
 

·
Moderator Emeritus
Joined
·
3,772 Posts
Don you and I must paint very differently ;)

A quart of paint will cover 87-100 square feet with one coat. A 120" diagonal screen comes out to be 43 square feet, so a quart should do two coats and I can say that personally the way I paint that comes out just about right. The bigger the nap of the roller cover, the more paint it will drink up when you first load the roller.

Also if you paint a surface that hasn't previously been painted, some will drink in for that first coat. If you prime first this won't be a problem.
I agree Bill, and I forgot to say that I almost always spray my screens and test panels simply because, for me, I waste less paint and clean-up is easier than rolling.

My "1 oz. per sq.ft" rule of thumb is just an observation I have made of my general paint coverage. There is always the possibility that I'm putting on too much. :)

Recently I tried using a less expensive primer and I find that I only use about 1/2 oz. per sq.ft with it, but it has quite a strong odor so I don't think I'll be recommending it's use here.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,242 Posts
Something else came to mind too... the better the quality the paint is the less that needs to be used.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
117 Posts
Hi Smuggs,

Welcome to the forum, I found ym way over here I think from the same place you have been.

From a DIY screen paint formula perspective, these guys cannot be beat! They are knowledgeable, "scientific" in their approach, prepared to back things up withf acts, excellent at breaking down complex topics into easy to understand chunks, and unbelievably nice and helpful!

I feel like the Elektra pimp, because I keep jumping into every thread about "what screen paint should I use" and yelling "Elektra".

ELEKTRA!!

This is born from personal experience. I have a similar PJ to yours (Epson 6500UB - older model, not as bright, but pretty similar in most other respects).

I am shooting a ~125" diagonal screen from ~ 16' away. In low lamp mode. And Elektra performs like a champ!

You can see my comments and some photos (with screenshots) in this thread:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...x2-experimental-n8-reflective-screen-mix.html

I rolled three coats over Kilz2 primer and ended up with ~1/3 gallon remaining.

I'd think you'll be blown away by Elektra. Check out the screen shots in my thread for a taste of things to come.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
Hey Canuck,

Your thread and pictures (especially the spreadsheet) are what finally put me over the edge to try Elektra, so thank you!

Question for everyone... I made a batch tonight of C&S #2, haven't added the N6 yet... I painted a small section of white BOC and while the paint visibly looks white in the can, it has a pink peachy hue next to the white BOC, is this normal or did I mess up? (It hasn't fully dried yet) It looks a lot like the magnified pictures on the C&S thread.

Mixed:
1 quart BEHR #1850 Premium Plus UPW interior flat enamel (9A100108 03697)
8oz CraftSmart Metallic Silver 23699
4oz CraftSmart Metallic Golf CS110
4oz CraftSmart Metallic Bronze CS112
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
14,914 Posts
Poly yellows pretty quickly actually. And it pushes the color towards yellow from the start slightly and it keeps going that way (towards yellow) over time. I have some polyurethane tests that are done, I just need to find time to sort through it all and get it posted. Anyone got some time to give me? :blink:
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
14,914 Posts
Hey Canuck,

Your thread and pictures (especially the spreadsheet) are what finally put me over the edge to try Elektra, so thank you!

Question for everyone... I made a batch tonight of C&S #2, haven't added the N6 yet... I painted a small section of white BOC and while the paint visibly looks white in the can, it has a pink peachy hue next to the white BOC, is this normal or did I mess up? (It hasn't fully dried yet) It looks a lot like the magnified pictures on the C&S thread.

Mixed:
1 quart BEHR #1850 Premium Plus UPW interior flat enamel (9A100108 03697)
8oz CraftSmart Metallic Silver 23699
4oz CraftSmart Metallic Golf CS110
4oz CraftSmart Metallic Bronze CS112
I don't believe there is any metallic golf or metallic bronze in C&S. More than likely, that is where your issue lies. That plus I don't believe the base paint is Behr UPW 1850.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I don't believe there is any metallic golf or metallic bronze in C&S. More than likely, that is where your issue lies. That plus I don't believe the base paint is Behr UPW 1850.
I followed C&S #2 from http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/diy-screens/10528-cream-sugar-n9-reflective-screen-mix.html

Snippet from Harpman's thread:

C&S#2
The first of the two is a more complicated mix than I wanted to use for C&S, but I'll list it since it is the most neutral mix I have tested so far and the paints, except the white paint, should be in the same area at Michael's since they are the same brand. It goes against my stated "3 paints or less" rule for C&S, but...

The down-side to this mix is it is a bit darker than N9 coming in at N8.8 for my sample chit. The up-side is it is the most neutral C&S mix yet.

You will need 4 different paints to make C&S#2.
One quart Behr UPW #1850 (acording to my spectro, Valspar Ultra Premium Enamel flat should work as well). Use the standard ultra-white base not a numbered base.
One 8 oz. bottle Craft Smart Metallic Silver
One 4 oz. bottle Craft Smart Metallic Gold
One 4 oz. bottle Craft Smart Metallic Bronze

The Gold and Bronze paints are needed to color-correct the mix. The neat thing is that ALL paints added to the white base are metallic so they all help make the mix reflective. The ratio of white paint to metallic paint is still 2:1 as in C&S #1.

The ratio of paint is:
UPW 8 parts
CSMS (silver) 2 parts
CSMG (gold) 1 part
CSMB (bronze) 1 part

Empty the paint into a large container and stir until blended. A squirrel-cage stirring attachment for a hand-drill is highly recommended as is washing the bottles of CSMS out with distilled water to get all the paint out - add the water to the mix.

I know this looks complicated, but it isn't. The key is that NO ingredient needs to be measured. It isn't hard to find the paints either since the white paint is simply a quart off the shelf that doesn't need to be tinted, and all 3 of the metallic paints should be close together at Michael's.

Read more: Cream&Sugar - an N9 reflective screen mix. - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...r-n9-reflective-screen-mix.html#ixzz0mYrFV06n
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
14,914 Posts
I wonder how long ago that was added... :scratch: I don't recall seeing that there before. I knew Harp was looking at changes, but I don't recall him adding new CSMS.

In that case, no it should not have a pink peachy hue to it. It should look white for the most part.
 
1 - 20 of 32 Posts
Top