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Since it's 1:1, wouldn't it only be 32 oz before water?
You are absolutely correct about that! For some reason I was thinking about one of the lighter experimental versions of C&S™. Sorry about that. :blush:

You could effectively up the mix volume to 48 oz. (before adding water) by getting another 8 oz. of BASICS 'Silver' (you already have enough tinted base) to make sure you have enough for your screen. Michael's frequently has 40% and 50% off coupons, just search online for them.
 

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Discussion Starter #23
Also, I keep forgetting to ask: I know you're not impressed with the performance of RS-MaxxMudd over here, but I don't know if you have any experience with the more recent formulas. The RS-MaxxMudd-LL is one I'm considering trying, it's a different formula from the one you tried in your original C&S thread:

20 oz. Rustoleum Metallic Accents - White Pearl
10 oz. Liquitex Basics Silver
12 oz. Behr 1850 Ultra Pure White - Flat
12 oz. Minwax Polycrylic - Satin finish
20 oz. distilled/tap water**
 

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Also, I keep forgetting to ask: I know you're not impressed with the performance of RS-MaxxMudd over here, but I don't know if you have any experience with the more recent formulas. The RS-MaxxMudd-LL is one I'm considering trying, it's a different formula from the one you tried in your original C&S thread:

20 oz. Rustoleum Metallic Accents - White Pearl
10 oz. Liquitex Basics Silver
12 oz. Behr 1850 Ultra Pure White - Flat
12 oz. Minwax Polycrylic - Satin finish
20 oz. distilled/tap water**
To say that we are not impressed with the performance of RSMM and SF is an understatement. The same is said by quite a few other folks as well, but whenever anyone "makes waves" about it at AVS their posts (and even whole threads) mysteriously disappear.

It's sad, but the main reason SF and RSMM have problems is the very thing the developers like to crow about and that is mix translucency. Notice that the mix you listed contains 30 oz. of mica-based paint and only 12 oz. of regular white latex paint. That would be bad enough (too much mica), but then they make matters worse yet by adding 12 oz. of clear polyurethane (that yellows significantly over time). The added poly reduces the hiding ability of the white paint so more of the mica reacts with light. This is bad for two reasons. First, the refraction of light by the mica is not controlled (absorbed) by the white paint causing a number of negative screen attributes that have been described as shimmering, glowing and like there is a dirty film over the screen. Second, the added translucency causes the projected image to have a soft focus, which was an advantage back when these mixes were developed; projected pixels were large and the lines between them could often be seen from regular viewing distance (called the "screen door effect"), but is a vast negative today with 1080p images the norm and higher resolutions coming down the pike.

If I can find the time I'll paint a RSMM-LL panel to test along side of your BOC (got it in the mail today) and the C&S™ Ultra and SW ProClassic 'Extra White' panels.

We generally don't reply to things said about us or our mixes at AVS anymore, but the record needs to be set straight (again) on a few matters.

One is that WE started using the Liquitex BASICS Silver paint in testing about a year and a half before MM and PB did; we don't make a big deal about that because we don't think it really matters.

Another thing is that lately MM seems to be crying about how we now advocate using mica-based paints (Liquitex) when we used to say how bad they were. Mica-based paints are STILL BAD if their refractive quality's aren't controlled by other mix ingredients. I have always said this, even when I was on AVS.

Another untruth MM likes to throw out there is that the original Cream&Sugar™ mix (and thus any mix based on C&S™) is just a copy or rehash of RSMM or earlier AVS mixes. Nothing could be further from the truth. I was actually working on a darker version of Black Widow™ when I was asked to see what I could come up with on the lighter end of the spectrum and C&S™ was born. A new mix had to be developed when the silver paint used in the original C&S™ changed it's formulation and it no longer worked to make an N9 mix. The old experimental versions using Liquitex BASICS Silver as the reflective agent were tested again and found to work without any of the negative attributes shown by mixes using too much mica.

One final thing needs to be addressed and that is the cry (mostly by MM) that our testing here is biased. That is a bald faced lie. It goes against everything that we stand for here. ALL of our testing is done to screen industry standards and is totally objective. ALL our testing is open to peer review.
 

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Discussion Starter #25
Interesting all around. I have to admit it seems weird to me that anyone would ever have a problem with anyone testing stuff, especially when no one on either side is trying to sell anything. Not sure what the motivation is.

Anyway, thanks in advance for whatever testing you're willing to do to help me out. It's greatly appreciated.
 

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Interesting all around. I have to admit it seems weird to me that anyone would ever have a problem with anyone testing stuff, especially when no one on either side is trying to sell anything. Not sure what the motivation is.

Anyway, thanks in advance for whatever testing you're willing to do to help me out. It's greatly appreciated.
While it may appear that way, Roland (MM) is trolling for customers in the diy screen forum. We've had a lot of people come here after having him paint a screen for them only to find out that he's not all he thinks he is.

The real question is why, after so many years of doing this, would someone not be familiar with terminology and standards related to their business?
 

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Interesting all around. I have to admit it seems weird to me that anyone would ever have a problem with anyone testing stuff, especially when no one on either side is trying to sell anything. Not sure what the motivation is.
Both MM and PB charge money to build projection screens for people, MM makes his living doing it. There is nothing inherently wrong with that, but it does explain why they promote and defend their screen mixes so hard, and why you can find precious few posts complaining about their mixes in the AVS DIY Screen forum; that forum is basically their advertising brochure.

The problem they have with honest, objective testing is that it disproves what they say about the performance of their mixes. If you read what they say about their mixes you will find that it goes against the laws of physics. You were just told that RSMM-LL (which they claim has a gain of 1.3) will have no visible brightness difference when viewing on-axis all the way to ear-on-the-wall off-axis. We'll see! ;) And after I photograph the panels I'll send a piece of the RSMM-LL panel large enough to take a gain reading to Mech.

Anyway, thanks in advance for whatever testing you're willing to do to help me out. It's greatly appreciated.
No problem! :T
 

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Sprayed on a bunch of coats of Behr UPW 1850 in preparation for RS-MM-LL. Checked out the UPW screen and it's definitely noticeably brighter, unsurprisingly, and blacks are lighter. Two problems: 1) Hotspotting, which I didn't think UPW flat was susceptible to; and 2) the projected image is visibly quite grainy. Should I sand the daylights out of it?

I can post comparison pics of the UPW to the BOC if anyone is interested. Today I am going to paint a 2' x 3' panel of BOC with Cream & Sugar Ultra to compare to. If after painting my screen with RS-MM-LL, I find the negatives outweigh the positives for me, I will likely repaint the screen with C&S (or who knows, maybe even an Elektra).

Another thing I was wondering about after speaking with Harpmaker in PM: I'm curious why I have never once read anyone (on either forum) actually *recommend* BOC as an ideal solution for some, and not just as a stopgap or cheap material to get by with. It sounds like every other possible screen, from a paint solution requiring $100 of paint and equipment to a $2000 Studiotek, is going to be a compromise, either having worse blacks or worse whites than BOC. Yet it doesn't seem like anyone feels that BOC is actually the BEST solution for anyone. Why not?
 

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Sprayed on a bunch of coats of Behr UPW 1850 in preparation for RS-MM-LL. Checked out the UPW screen and it's definitely noticeably brighter, unsurprisingly, and blacks are lighter. Two problems: 1) Hotspotting, which I didn't think UPW flat was susceptible to; and 2) the projected image is visibly quite grainy. Should I sand the daylights out of it?
Behr #1850 FLAT finish shouldn't hot spot at all! Please post some photos of this if you would. I just read your thread about this at AVS and looked at the link to the paint you are using. This is a new paint from Behr and if you read the reviews on Home Depot people are hating it! I see two potential reasons for your 1850 screen hot spotting, either the reformulated paint has much more gloss than it should or an error was made at the factory and the paint inside your can isn't really flat finish, but one of a higher gloss (a labeling error). Either way, until we get to the bottom of why your Behr #1850 is hot spotting we are going to have to pull our recommendation for it's use as a screen paint or using it to make a screen mix!

Since you are getting significant hot spotting with your screen, this will accentuate any texture the screen might have and may be causing your grainy image.

I would return that can of paint to Home Depot and complain like the mad. Something is wrong with it!

Just another note on this paint; I see that even though the label says that the paint is "self priming" the paint specifications say it is NOT a primer and that a real primer is REQUIRED before use! As we have said here from the beginning, "self priming" paint is bunk! It's nothing more than an advertising gimmick.

I can post comparison pics of the UPW to the BOC if anyone is interested. Today I am going to paint a 2' x 3' panel of BOC with Cream & Sugar Ultra to compare to. If after painting my screen with RS-MM-LL, I find the negatives outweigh the positives for me, I will likely repaint the screen with C&S (or who knows, maybe even an Elektra).
I hope it's not too late for this, but with the current problem with Behr paint DO NOT make C&S™ Ultra using that paint or it too would hot spot.

Another thing I was wondering about after speaking with Harpmaker in PM: I'm curious why I have never once read anyone (on either forum) actually *recommend* BOC as an ideal solution for some, and not just as a stopgap or cheap material to get by with. It sounds like every other possible screen, from a paint solution requiring $100 of paint and equipment to a $2000 Studiotek, is going to be a compromise, either having worse blacks or worse whites than BOC. Yet it doesn't seem like anyone feels that BOC is actually the BEST solution for anyone. Why not?
I thought I did recommend BOC. :scratch: The two samples of it that I have measured with my spectro have both been quite neutral in color on the smooth side and both close enough to N9 to call them such. The only thing that is lacking with BOC is gain; since it has no gloss to it at all it will appear to be a darker screen than an N9 OTS flat finish paint . Depending on the viewing angle desired this isn't a bad thing. The other thing about BOC is that one must make a frame for it. Most people looking for an inexpensive DIY screen are looking to simply paint their wall.
 

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Discussion Starter #30 (Edited)
Hmm, now I'm worried about the Behr! I know it's not a real primer, but unless I'm mistaken, Highside and others have talked about going straight to 1850 for the base coats on BOC, so that's what I did.

One thing is that my texture is pretty uneven (guess I didn't do as good a job as I thought); the top third or so of the screen is much smoother than the bottom third and somewhat smoother than the middle third; the bottom third is like sandpaper. So this might be user error.



You know, looking through my pics, it must be something with my projector or something. Even the BOC has the same "hotspot" pattern. Here is the BOC and the UPW, both at 1/40sec exposure:






I have the Valspar for the C&S Ultra. This is the product number on the can, although as you said it now says "super flat" on the can.

But I'm having trouble mixing the Liquitex with it. The silver is remaining in clumps. Unfortunately when I went to Lowe's to purchase the squirrel mixer shown on their site, they had the correct SKU but it was actually a different mixer, a paddle-type, so I was forced to get that.
 

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Hmm, now I'm worried about the Behr! I know it's not a real primer, but unless I'm mistaken, Highside and others have talked about going straight to 1850 for the base coats on BOC, so that's what I did.
For painting on fabric (BOC) a real primer may not be necessary since the fabric should have enough "tooth" for a finish paint or mix to stick to. You do need to seal the BOC with something so that it doesn't absorb more finish paint than needed. I think a real primer would have worked better since it is actually designed to seal surfaces, but I don't know how big the difference is when coating BOC. What concerns me about the current Behr #1850 product is the VERY bad reviews it is getting! :huh:

One thing is that my texture is pretty uneven (guess I didn't do as good a job as I thought); the top third or so of the screen is much smoother than the bottom third and somewhat smoother than the middle third; the bottom third is like sandpaper. So this might be user error.
That is another problem associated with BOC since it can absorb paint differently in different areas of the screen. The flatter the finish of the screen paint or mix the less this matters and the higher the gloss or reflectivity of the paint or mix the more it matters. We haven't had enough user reports back from using C&S™ Ultra in situations like this to know how it would be affected, but a high directional gain mix like RS-MM-LL could definitely be problematic.

The thing about sanding a screen, any screen, is it can he difficult to get an even texture for a number of reasons no matter how careful you are to apply the same pressure when sanding. It's almost a given that you will have to paint your screen at least one more time after sanding.



You know, looking through my pics, it must be something with my projector or something. Even the BOC has the same "hotspot" pattern. Here is the BOC and the UPW, both at 1/40sec exposure:


Oh oh, that could be bad. The way to tell if the projector is causing the hot spot is that the hot spot will not move as you change your viewing angle and position. It will if the screen is causing the hot spotting.

I have the Valspar for the C&S Ultra. This is the product number on the can, although as you said it now says "super flat" on the can.

But I'm having trouble mixing the Liquitex with it. The silver is remaining in clumps. Unfortunately when I went to Lowe's to purchase the squirrel mixer shown on their site, they had the correct SKU but it was actually a different mixer, a paddle-type, so I was forced to get that.
Yeah, the LBS can be tough to get into the mix. You need to stir the mix, no matter how long, until you don't see ANY lumps of LBS though as lumps of pure LBS would have different reflective characteristics than the rest of the mix. If you have to, use the wife's electric hand mixer to do the job. Since you are spraying the mix rather than rolling it won't matter if air gets whipped into the mix or not. Just be sure to clean the mixer until it's spotless before taking it back to the kitchen or you may be sleeping on the couch for a while. :gulp:
 

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Discussion Starter #32
What kind of speed does the best job mixing? As fast as I can get without it flying all over the place?
 

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Discussion Starter #33
Kitchen mixer got it smooth as silk, thanks!

I know you don't sand after the last coat of C&S, but should I sand between coats?
 

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It's a bit late now, but I would have used the slowest mixer speed that got the job done.

As for sanding between coats, I don't recommend it unless you are seeing a texture difference between areas of the screen. If you sand dried but uncured paint you tend to gouge the paint off the surface rather than merely removing a small amount just from the surface. Uncured paint will also tend to "pill" on you. This is where small round balls of the gummy uncured paint collect on the surface of the sandpaper or sanding block and act as ball bearings so the sandpaper/block stops cutting well.
 

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Discussion Starter #36 (Edited)
I think I'm just terrible at spraying. It seems like no matter what, I'm spraying too much paint. I'm moving quickly, I'm 14" (or more) away, and my paint flows through the nylon strainer easily.

I used 8oz of Valspar and 8oz of Liquitex, plus water to thin appropriately, and only got 4 coats on my 2' x 3' panel. There were 2oz left in the container but my bottom pass had begun to sputter due to the sprayer design (what a terrible idea, by the way, making sure you can never use all your paint). The screen is not rough but is certainly not approaching "glass" or "baby bottom" smooth. Looks orange peel-y to me. And it takes an hour, minimum, for a coat to dry in a basement room that is about 70 degrees.

Maybe I'm just overlapping too much? Each pass should drop down what, about 4"?
 

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I think I'm just terrible at spraying. It seems like no matter what, I'm spraying too much paint. I'm moving quickly, I'm 14" (or more) away, and my paint flows through the nylon strainer easily.

I used 8oz of Valspar and 8oz of Liquitex, plus water to thin appropriately, and only got 4 coats on my 2' x 3' panel. There were 2oz left in the container but my bottom pass had begun to sputter due to the sprayer design (what a terrible idea, by the way, making sure you can never use all your paint). The screen is not rough but is certainly not approaching "glass" or "baby bottom" smooth. Looks orange peel-y to me. And it takes an hour, minimum, for a coat to dry in a basement room that is about 70 degrees.

Maybe I'm just overlapping too much? Each pass should drop down what, about 4"?
With our mixes and OTS paints you don't need a "baby bottom smooth" screen, what you need is a fairly smooth surface (NOT like cinder block though) and for it to be the same texture over the whole screen surface.

That sprayer has a control to limit the amount of paint that it shoots, try adjusting it down so you don't have to run like the wind to prevent runs and sags. I have to confess that I do own a sprayer like yours, but I haven't even taken it out of the shipping carton yet because it uses a bottom feeding cup. I MUCH prefer a gravity fed gun - when they run out of paint there is no sputtering or spitting so for doing screen test panels I'll stick to my compressor-powered el cheapo Harbor Freight HVLP rig.

Overlap each pass by at least 50%. How wide that 50% is depends on how wide a fan your gun is spraying with the paint you are shooting. There is usually a control for that too, be sure it is set for the widest fan.
 

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Discussion Starter #38
Uh oh. So naturally when I go for the first "money" coat of RS-MM-LL, it seems like I may have added too much water. Came out in far-spaced wet grey dots here and there, very watery. I guess my only path is to mix a bit more of the RS-MM-LL, which will be tricky because it will be small amounts, and add it in to thicken the pot?

later edit: Yeah, I don't know what's going on. I added the remaining 2oz of Liquitex plus the respective amounts of the rest and no additional water, remixed and strained, and I'm having the same problem. Instead of a finely atomized mist I'm getting very far apart wet splotches.

Could this be too *little* water? It doesn't seem like it though, it flows through the strainer fine (it seems).

(cross-posted to AVS; I wish everyone could just get along!)
 

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Uh oh. So naturally when I go for the first "money" coat of RS-MM-LL, it seems like I may have added too much water. Came out in far-spaced wet grey dots here and there, very watery. I guess my only path is to mix a bit more of the RS-MM-LL, which will be tricky because it will be small amounts, and add it in to thicken the pot?

later edit: Yeah, I don't know what's going on. I added the remaining 2oz of Liquitex plus the respective amounts of the rest and no additional water, remixed and strained, and I'm having the same problem. Instead of a finely atomized mist I'm getting very far apart wet splotches.

Could this be too *little* water? It doesn't seem like it though, it flows through the strainer fine (it seems).
It sounds like the sprayer may not be working right. Check your manual's troubleshooting section (if it has one, most do) and be sure all parts are assembled correctly and working. You could also try spraying some UPW again just to check the gun. If the UPW sprays as it did before then there is a problem with the RS-MM-LL mix otherwise it's the sprayer.

(cross-posted to AVS; I wish everyone could just get along!)
Yeah, that would be great wouldn't it? :daydream: Unfortunately there is too wide a philosophical gap between their DIY screen forum and ours. They totally disregard scientific principles there (even ignoring the laws of physics) supplanting them with their own theories and wishful thinking. A case in point is the fact that they try to use a paint strainer "sock" to gauge if a paint mix is ready to spray; there are so many things wrong with that method I won't go into it here. The point is that the sprayer comes with a paint cup that is designed to measure paint flow (both viscosity and rheology) which they advocate people not use and instead pour the mixed paint through a sock filter and judge the flow rate "by eye". Wow. :doh:
 

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Discussion Starter #40
Well, it's done and hanging. I can tell already the grain is going to keep this from being a keeper. That's not a problem with the RS-MM-LL, it's a problem with my painting technique I guess, since I had it with the UPW as well. Skies and light colored areas are like they're under frosted glass. I'm off camping now, will probably buy a new piece of BOC when I get back and just go back to ol' faithful. My hat's off to those who can get "smooth as glass" finishes.
 
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