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I'm messing around with hornresp now, but if I'm doing it right I've got a ~15 cubic foot enclosure with a 13 hz lower knee with a single shiva. I've got some tweaking to do on it but it's looking pretty promising as a tapped horn. It would yield about 90 db at the lower knee with 2.83 volts in 1/2 space. We'll see if I can get it worked out. Now getting it folded in a decent way will be another story... I haven't tried to mock up the full horn before. Hoping it will work, but if not I'll try again.

I also tried messing around with a dual shiva tapped horn, but that got way too large. If I get the single driver shiva down I'll mess with the dual driver one to see if I can get it down to a more acceptable size.
 

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You're on the right track, you can use a longer throat segment to kill that 60 Hz dip too.

Don't know if you have seen these over at AVS, they might help:

Simple Offset Driver HornResp Tutorial

Simple Tapped Horn Tutorial using Hornresp

Hey - waitaminute - wasn't this some sort of design contest???:duh:

Here I am helping my competition.....
I've seen those two posts and refer back frequently. I would be lost without them. Thanks!

Dude, helping me is like stepping out of your Ferrari to help me fix the flat on my 1972 VW van. It will keep me going, but I'm not going to catch up. :D

Throat would be L12/L32?
 

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I've seen those two posts and refer back frequently. I would be lost without them. Thanks!

Dude, helping me is like stepping out of your Ferrari to help me fix the flat on my 1972 VW van. It will keep me going, but I'm not going to catch up. :D

Throat would be L12/L32?
You're welcome. Honestly, I think I learned more by trying to teach...

Come on now - everyone starts somewhere. I just tried to put all of the information into one place.

The distance from the small end to the driver is the throat, but I typed a dumb - meant to say MOUTH segment, which is the distance from the driver to the open end.

OOPS! Sorry for the confusion.
 

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OK. I've played with the throat section, but not the mouth.

Thanks.

Honestly, I think I learned more by trying to teach...
Yeah, showing someone else forces you to think hard about what it is you think you know.
 

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OK. I've played with the throat section, but not the mouth.

Thanks.


Yeah, showing someone else forces you to think hard about what it is you think you know.
And - the smart kids pull you aside and quietly point out the things you don't quite have a grasp on yet.:D

Seriously - without the people that helped me, that thread would have a fraction of the value it does.

I'm actually still listening to that little sub. Think I have the gains about right now - probably won't bottom the drivers out during big kabooms any more.
 

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.....

We are going to have to do some Anarchy horns next.

Kevin Haskins
Exodus Audio
Spent all evening workin' on em..... :D

That is one monster of a little driver!

Preliminary results suggest a pair of 4.5M long tapped horns loaded with Anarchy drivers placed in corners will do over 115 dB from 25 Hz up with 100 watts per. Wall loading (1pi) will still get you over 110 dB with a pair.

The cabinets are about 2.5 cubic feet each.
 

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Spent all evening workin' on em..... :D

That is one monster of a little driver!

Preliminary results suggest a pair of 4.5M long tapped horns loaded with Anarchy drivers placed in corners will do over 115 dB from 25 Hz up with 100 watts per. Wall loading (1pi) will still get you over 110 dB with a pair.

The cabinets are about 2.5 cubic feet each.
Yea.... it is a little beast of a driver. The size/bandwidth/output equation is very attractive.

Kevin Haskins
Exodus Audio
 

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Here's a decent 1st try: 33"x33"x20". It can be refolded to be a taller box than just square on one side...



The Shiva really gets to flex it's muscles in a bigger box, though. Here are corner loaded, Xmax limited outputs for the horn above, and one more optimized for the Shiva Driver (but 120 liters larger):



The larger horn in grey.

Before I dimension this guy up and draw plans, I have to know if this size and shape would be acceptable....

JSS
 

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Here's a decent 1st try: 33"x33"x20". It can be refolded to be a taller box than just square on one side...






The larger horn in grey.

Before I dimension this guy up and draw plans, I have to know if this size and shape would be acceptable....

JSS
Stretch it tall so that it can go in a corner and I'd give it the thumbs up. Imagine a corner specific sub that is designed to go left/right corners without taking up a large footprint. It literally gets built into the room and you could drywall over it. Leave an access panel to get to the sub. Keep in mind standard 4x8 material dimensions for cutting panels.

Kevin Haskins
Exodus Audio
 

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You want me to look at a similar form factor for the tapped horn fold too?

Sort of a minimal-footprint approach?
I think that would be cool. Most of the people I deal with who don't have enclosure requirements for size are building a home theaters including the room. If you are building a room from scratch these large enclosure horns make sense, especially if you unwind them and make them tall rather than fat and wide. If you need <8-10 cubic feet or deep smooth bandwidth a traditional sub makes more sense because they are much easier to design to get the desired bandwidth and keep to a manageable size. They are easier to build and only maybe 2-5% of my customers will build a sub > 10 cubic feet anyway. It is a small minority that are willing to accept that large of an enclosure in the room.

But the people who are building a HT from scratch often have 1-2 ft of space behind a screen or in a false wall. If the design was tall rather than deep/fat it would fit their application. A big rectangular box does not.

Kevin Haskins
Exodus Audio
 

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Kevin,

If I keep it 20" wide, I have 1089 square inches to fill for the other 2 dims. that comes out to 24"x45", 28"x39", or whatever 2 numbers that multiplied together hit 1089.

Changing the width from 20" is more work, but can be done...

What kind of dims do you need specifically, so I won't have to be guessing if the box is 'tall enough' compared to the width/depth? I have 21780 cu in worth of volume to make into a box...

Oh, in case people are wondering, the horn as designed above will beat a 17" wide THT loaded with a 12" DVC in hornresp sims, by a non-trivial margin in both extension and max output. The 15" DVC loaded, 24" wide THT beats this one in output, but also requires 18 cu ft in a 36"x36"x24" box....

JSS

PS - Mike, I will definitely not change the width (or anything else) if your TH smokes this design....so I'll wait on you to develop this any further...
 

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Kevin,

If I keep it 20" wide, I have 1089 square inches to fill for the other 2 dims. that comes out to 24"x45", 28"x39", or whatever 2 numbers that multiplied together hit 1089.

Changing the width from 20" is more work, but can be done...

What kind of dims do you need specifically, so I won't have to be guessing if the box is 'tall enough' compared to the width/depth? I have 21780 cu in worth of volume to make into a box...

Oh, in case people are wondering, the horn as designed above will beat a 17" wide THT loaded with a 12" DVC in hornresp sims, by a non-trivial margin in both extension and max output. The 15" DVC loaded, 24" wide THT beats this one in output, but also requires 18 cu ft in a 36"x36"x24" box....

JSS

PS - Mike, I will definitely not change the width (or anything else) if your TH smokes this design....so I'll wait on you to develop this any further...
I gotta get back to the Shiva project. Have some ideas on a nice and easy tall/skinny fold pattern and it looks like I still have to tweak my model some more, my phase is not quite right according to a quick check with AkAbak.

Go ahead and change away....I'm not done tweaking mine yet either.:D Though I doubt I'll get much more efficiency out of it, I'm pretty confident that I can find some more low-frequency extension.

I'm not here so much to "win" but rather to learn all I can and maybe teach a little. If part of that is learning that when given same volume, a Shiva likes a ODH more than a TH, so much the better, ODHs are a TON easier to fold up!

By the way - everyone - be sure and check out the new version of Hornresp.
 

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Kevin,
Changing the width from 20" is more work, but can be done...

What kind of dims do you need specifically, so I won't have to be guessing if the box is 'tall enough' compared to the width/depth? I have 21780 cu in worth of volume to make into a box...

O.
I don't have a hard and fast number but I think if you twiddle the overall design to be taller rather than rectangular that is a good goal. Most people want something that fits behind a 1-2' false wall or they want something tall and unobtrusive to built into a corner. That is the direction I'm thinking. Most people don't want 36" x 36" x 36" boxes in their room. It becomes and unmanageable object in the room where something tall can easily be built into the corner. The corner idea naturally lends itself to the design goals because it helps with extension and allows for maximum output into the room.

That is my general thinking. You are free to pursue any shape you want and you can do more than one. There is nothing saying we couldn't have one designed for the corner and another designed as a pro-audio 30Hz cut-off type of device.

h, in case people are wondering, the horn as designed above will beat a 17" wide THT loaded with a 12" DVC in hornresp sims, by a non-trivial margin in both extension and max output. The 15" DVC loaded, 24" wide THT beats this one in output, but also requires 18 cu ft in a 36"x36"x24" box....
From everything I've modeled the smaller drivers just do better horn loaded. The big ones grow to unmanageable sizes that just are not pragmatic no matter how nuts you are. You would be better off building multiple smaller 12" driver versions rather than one big horn designed around a 18" driver.

I say that with much trepidation because I make more money on the 18" & 21" drivers. :rolleyesno: If I'm wrong it will be about the 18" Maelstrom rather than the 15" Tempest or 21" Maelstrom. Model the 18" and see what you get.

Kevin Haskins
Exodus Audio
 

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The big ones grow to unmanageable sizes that just are not pragmatic no matter how nuts you are.
If there's one thing I've learned in all my back and forth messages with littlemike on my Tang Band tapped horn project, it's that it takes the right kind of woofer to work well in a tapped horn, and unfortunately most (but not all) of the big ones are all off in some way or another. I've been working on a monster of a design for my Mach 5 IXL 18.2.2, but getting any kind of extension out of it with a horn requires a massive box. The jury's very much out on whether I'll even attempt it.

I can get the MX 21" to model well too, but again... size is a big issue.
 

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The Anarchy looks really good. Mike is building up a pair. I cannot build a tapped horn with them because technically that violates the patent. You guys can build all the tapped horns you like as DIYers so knock yourselves out....

Kevin Haskins
Exodus Audio
 

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But, you can build an OD horn w/o patent infringement....but it takes a ton of labor to do so for commercial gain, and not usually feasible.

OK, I'll see what I can do to make the Shiva horn a slimmer model...

BTW - the Maelstrom 18" models well in a big horn....in fact, an HTS user is going to build TWO of them, watch for the build thread soon. Big box, 32"x40"x64". He will be placing them in an attic space, IIRC. Compression Ratio is under 2.5:1 (the hardest thing to lower and keep a decent response).

Here's what hornresp predicts for two of them, corner loaded, 50V into each, just under Xmax at the excursion maximum at 15Hz:



highpass, and you can get into the 140s from 20Hz and up....or until the driver burns up or tears the cone/surround....

JSS
 

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But, you can build an OD horn w/o patent infringement....but it takes a ton of labor to do so for commercial gain, and not usually feasible.

OK, I'll see what I can do to make the Shiva horn a slimmer model...

BTW - the Maelstrom 18" models well in a big horn....in fact, an HTS user is going to build TWO of them, watch for the build thread soon. Big box, 32"x40"x64". He will be placing them in an attic space, IIRC. Compression Ratio is under 2.5:1 (the hardest thing to lower and keep a decent response).

Here's what hornresp predicts for two of them, corner loaded, 50V into each, just under Xmax at the excursion maximum at 15Hz:



highpass, and you can get into the 140s from 20Hz and up....or until the driver burns up or tears the cone/surround....

JSS
Ha! That is absolutely insane.... I love it. He has to sign my liability waiver before purchasing those.

Kevin Haskins
Exodus Audio
 

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The Anarchy looks really good.
That's almost an understatement - I finally got around to modeling them myself, and... let's just say I already liked them before I saw I could put four into a tapped horn and build a 16Hz monster horn with them.

Now, I'm strongly considering either a full 7.1 channel tapped horn setup with the big Tang Band horn handling the LFE and seven little 30Hz Anarchy horns helping out the main channels, or just re-building the mains with the Anarchys in a back loaded horn config. Or building the tapped horns into the main speakers. Or something else crazy along those lines, like adding my IXL horn plan to the Tang Band horn.

I'll need to borrow a stopwatch so I can time how fast the cops get here though.
 

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From everything I've modeled the smaller drivers just do better horn loaded. The big ones grow to unmanageable sizes that just are not pragmatic no matter how nuts you are. You would be better off building multiple smaller 12" driver versions rather than one big horn designed around a 18" driver.
......
Maybe people will listen to you....I feel like a broken record.

This is where it really comes down to the drivers. Among other things, it takes the right amount of motor per unit area of cone for a driver to work well in a tapped horn. If I understand the specs right, the Shiva-X2 has essentially the same motor as the Tempest-X2. Same motor, more cone. Which works better in a tapped horn?

The Shiva-X2.

Hmmm - the Anarchy has a lot of motor and a tiny little cone, how's that one work??? Oh, yeah. Really well.

(the following is quite oversimplified....)

The ratio of BL/Sd is just one of the things I look at, Anarchy = 0.082, Shiva-X2 = 0.030, Tempest-X2 = 0.019, Maelstrom 18 = 0.019, Maelstrom 21 = 0.014. This is a double-edged criteria - too high a BL/Sd and a driver won't work properly in a tapped horn either. Just getting this one right is no guarantee, compliance is a huge criteria too, as there is no "back chamber" on a tapped horn. It is all about finding the right driver and making the right enclosure for it.

With the right 15, a tapped horn getting into the teens with authority is feasible (my flavor of feasible = under 20 cubic feet, over 500 watts of power handling, and over 105 dB 1W 1M in the corner). Though I have found manufacturer-supplied numbers that suggest that this is possible with a few drivers, I know enough not to trust those numbers implicitly, certainly not enough to pull out my credit card....

I'm with Kevin on this one. Once you get this big - using two 12s makes more sense, the result takes more power and makes more noise, and probably takes up less space.
 
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