[Chucka]

I am considering either a single Rythmik F12 or two SVS SB01000 subs for a small 5.1 Condo system with 5 KEF LS-50 loudspeakers. The cost of either sub option is approx $1,000. I am more interestred in the musical quality possible at this cost rather than low end extension or high output (which is why I am now leaning towards sealed designs). Any opinion on either of these two options would be appreciated.

 

[BeeMan458]

The two subs will give you better smoothing of room modes which will show itself in overall better sound quality. A small condo system will benefit greatly via two SB-1000s vs a single F12.

Disclosure: owner of two Rythmik subs.

 

[willis7469]

Yes, I agree. A pair of sb-1000s would be great for what your after (though I personally don't believe they need to be sealed to be musical) The pair will definitely help tame the peaks and valleys, and offer a nice smooth presentation. Plus, you will gain a few Db's, while improving headroom. ...ya never know when you'll want to stretch their legs out!

 

[TheLaw612]

I am more interestred in the musical quality possible at this cost rather than low end extension or high output

If this is the case then the Rythmik will probably give you better quality bass because of the servo design. How much better is subjective. However, the dual sb1000's will have better headroom and a smoother response than a single sub.

You can always order the sb1000's and audition them for free. Return shipping on the Rythmik is probably around $100.

 

[BeeMan458]

If this is the case then the Rythmik will probably give you better quality bass because of the servo design. How much better is subjective. However, the dual sb1000's will have better headroom and a smoother response than a single sub.

I hate these kinds of dilemmas. The short version, in the end, it's all about the Benjamins and how many of them one has to throw at this type of conundrum.

The difference between a one sub system vs a two subwoofer system is very noticeable but yes, based on anecdotal evidence, the "Direct Servo Technology" gives better musical qualities but without the second subwoofer, the individual loses out on the benefit of room smoothing. It's like a bad version of Abbott and Costello's "Who's On First."

Money or quality. Quality or money. What to do?......first base!

 

[Chucka]

I hate these kinds of dilemmas. The short version, in the end, it's all about the Benjamins and how many of them one has to throw at this type of conundrum.

The difference between a one sub system vs a two subwoofer system is very noticeable but yes, based on anecdotal evidence, the "Direct Servo Technology" gives better musical qualities but without the second subwoofer, the individual loses out on the benefit of room smoothing. It's like a bad version of Abbott and Costello's "Who's On First."

Money or quality. Quality or money. What to do?......first base!

This is much of what I am feeling. Because of this economy I do not have to make a final decision yet (and it may determine the solution) and in the meantime I hope to find a little more money to put into this system. So I am also looking at a view of diminishing return. I have always worked with dual subs and have experienced thier benefit. Of what I am reading in most reviews, the Rythmik F12's are excellent for music and I know the benefit of dual subs. So yes, it is a "Who's On First" decision that may have its only solution by throwing more money at the problem.

 

[BeeMan458]

So yes, it is a "Who's On First" decision that may have its only solution by throwing more money at the problem.

Maybe a compromise....a pair of Rythmik LV12Rs? Then there's the old creep up on it routine, buy one now, add one later?

Bear123, do you have a LV12R you can comment on?

 

[theJman]

If you opt to go the duals route then the SB1000's would work quite well. SVS also has the SB2000, which would be more the direct competitor to the F12, so if you opt for a single you should probably look into that model as well. As you've already found though, it's hard to beat a Rythmik for precision and accuracy.

 

[TheLaw612]

Going to throw something out here...

I don't know how comfortable you are with DIY or AIY (assemble it yourself) but you could get the Dual Driver CI Kit with the 800w servo amp and two drivers shown at the bottom of this page.

Then grab two of these from DIY Sound Group and build a separate small box for the amp and you've got a dual Rythmik setup for a little over $1K.

Just a thought...

 

[jamesfrazier]

Or commenting on the DIY route, I believe the SI (stereo integrity) 15" are still available. They go for around 200 with shipping.. 2 of those, some supplies for boxes and a Ep 2500 or inuke 3000 would work well and stay around your budget.

 

[Chucka]

Going to throw something out here...

I don't know how comfortable you are with DIY or AIY (assemble it yourself) but you could get the Dual Driver CI Kit with the 800w servo amp and two drivers shown at the bottom of this page.

Then grab two of these from DIY Sound Group and build a separate small box for the amp and you've got a dual Rythmik setup for a little over $1K.

Just a thought...

While being a great idea, not having any of the tools needed to take on such a project would cause the overall cost to be higher than buying completed units. Plus one has to have the time to take on such a project which I have very little of. Manufactured units are my only reasonable option for any of my system design projects. But thanks for the idea

 

[Blacklightning]

This got me thinking about my "future" setup as I'm looking at getting 2 Rythmik F12G's but 4 SB1000's would fit the budget nicely. My setup as 2 channel only with 1 listening position. I do not care about SPL as I will run my system flat and my mains will run full range so they will run out of steam well before the subs. I do care about extension as I want 16hz for organ stuff. My room is 13' x 16' x 10' to 12' high sealed.

 

[BeeMan458]

This got me thinking about my "future" setup as I'm looking at getting 2 Rythmik F12G's but 4 SB1000's would fit the budget nicely. My setup as 2 channel only with 1 listening position. I do not care about SPL as I will run my system flat and my mains will run full range so they will run out of steam well before the subs. I do care about extension as I want 16hz for organ stuff. My room is 13' x 16' x 10' to 12' high sealed.

In my opinion, buying more subwoofers is not a good idea. Yes, the ideal placement is four subwoofers but that's without room correction software.

Do you have room correction software?

The benefit of the Rythmik line is three fold, first the "Direct Servo Technology" which gives immediate feedback to the subwoofer; better for music. The second, the amplifier has PEQ so you can pick a troubling area and the subwoofer can help correct. Lastly, the Rythmik F12G digs deeper and will do a better job of reproducing those low organ notes.

 

[Blacklightning]

In my opinion, buying more subwoofers is not a good idea. Yes, the ideal placement is four subwoofers but that's without room correction software.

Do you have room correction software?

The benefit of the Rythmik line is three fold, first the "Direct Servo Technology" which gives immediate feedback to the subwoofer; better for music. The second, the amplifier has PEQ so you can pick a troubling area and the subwoofer can help correct. Lastly, the Rythmik F12G digs deeper and will do a better job of reproducing those low organ notes.

No room correction software for me, but I will be inviting a fellow board member over to run REW. :innocent:

I want to run the subs in the front and in stereo. I believe my xover will be set between 40hz - 60 hz but this may be higher as I will now be running my speakers well out into the room.

Room will have treatment and is built just for playing music so I can do ANYTHING a want. I can hang the towers from the ceiling if I want... the wife will not step foot in the room.

I'm a big classical music fan and I hate the sound of 99% of the subwoofers I hear. My towers have very nice bass and the only subs I have heard and liked was a Paradigm Servo 15 version 1 (too much money at the time) and a Rel R328 (did not play deep).

 

[theJman]

This got me thinking about my "future" setup as I'm looking at getting 2 Rythmik F12G's but 4 SB1000's would fit the budget nicely. My setup as 2 channel only with 1 listening position. I do not care about SPL as I will run my system flat and my mains will run full range so they will run out of steam well before the subs. I do care about extension as I want 16hz for organ stuff. My room is 13' x 16' x 10' to 12' high sealed.

Frankly, if hitting 16Hz is one of your requirements then neither the F12G or the SB1000 is really going to satisfy your needs. You would be better served with the E15HP or SB13U. Either of those would be more likely to achieve your goals.

 

[Blacklightning]

Two... in my small sealed room???

 

[BeeMan458]

Two... in my small sealed room???

Forgive me as I'm not sure of what you're trying to share. I see the first graph is an open plane graph by Ilkka Rissanen.

If you don't know already, expectedly, a second subwoofer will reinforce (raise) the left side of the graph.

(and I'm pretty much clueless how to read your second graph regarding harmonic distortion)

 

[Blacklightning]

Specifications
Driver 12" high excursion with custom sensing coil
Driver materials Treated paper with foam surround
Cast aluminum basket
Amplifier 370w RMS class A/B patented servo controlled
Dimensions 15-3/4"(W) x 15-3/4" (H )x 17"(D) - (18-1/2" D with grille)
Shipping Weight 75 lbs
Frequency Response 14 - 100 Hz (-2 dB @ 14 Hz)
Crossover slope Selectable 12 or 24 dB / octave (PEQ and XLR versions)
Crossover range (Low pass) 25 - 120 Hz
Rumble Filter (High pass ) 20Hz 18 dB / octave
Phase response 90 degrees phase shift at 20 Hz
Phase adjustment 0 - 180 degrees continuously variable
Bass damping factor settings high (Q=0.5), med (Q=0.7), and low (Q=1.1)

I can't really explain the above charts as they are not mine but I was under the impression that the Rythmik sealed subs can all play to 14Hz at least at 85db, the only different is the max volume. So two small subs in my small 2000 cube sealed room should play 32-16hz organ notes at the same volume that my mains can play 64-32hz notes...

At least I hope.

The SB1000 is not designed to have 16hz performance so I think that is not an option for me.

 

[theJman]

I can't really explain the above charts as they are not mine but I was under the impression that the Rythmik sealed subs can all play to 14Hz at least at 85db, the only different is the max volume. So two small subs in my small 2000 cube sealed room should play 32-16hz organ notes at the same volume that my mains can play 64-32hz notes...

At least I hope.

The SB1000 is not designed to have 16hz performance so I think that is not an option for me.

Without knowing how far away the mic was when those readings were taken it's not really possible to derive a great deal from the charts. If it was CEA 2010 distance - 2 meters - those output numbers wouldn't be bad for a single 12" driver in a sealed enclosure. However, if those are 'close mic', which is usually within and inch or two of the driver cone, they aren't very strong.

Usable output in the mid-teens requires a lot of smaller drivers or a few large ones. There's simply no way around the physics of an acoustic suspension alignment, which is what prompted my suggestion of subwoofers with larger drivers. You won't necessarily need a pair of SB13's or E15's to get decent output down that low, but spare headroom would be at a premium with a single unit so you might find yourself in the position of having to raise the gain to a point were the output could begin to have some audible distortion artifacts. For HT that might not be so bad -- because people like to hear things go boom -- but for music it's a very bad thing.

 

[BeeMan458]

From what I read, they're measured at 4m and the readings are adjusted to 2m.