Joined
·
18 Posts
Speaker Wires, Does it matter?
21 - 40 of 40 Posts
Re: Speak Wires, Does it matter?
We're all wired differently. We all hear differently. We've all had different emotional responses to music and movies. The ways these are perceived and processed in the brain cannot be duplicated from one person to another. Read Musicophilia by Oliver Sacks if you want a documented batch of stories about people who are truly wired for music in one way or another. I think that beyond pulse response, frequency response, and all the measurable stuff is definitely something that cannot be measured. For my own system, cables are not the end-all, but provide some mild tuning. Nothing beats synergy of well-matched components, but connecting them with *wire* that doesn't enhance them seems counterintuitive. If you want to, please do. YOUR system only has to sound good to YOU.
So much to chew on there. Nice post. I'll distill my reply to the quote above...!
We're all wired differently. We all hear differently. We've all had different emotional responses to music and movies. The ways these are perceived and processed in the brain cannot be duplicated from one person to another. Read Musicophilia by Oliver Sacks if you want a documented batch of stories about people who are truly wired for music in one way or another. I think that beyond pulse response, frequency response, and all the measurable stuff is definitely something that cannot be measured. For my own system, cables are not the end-all, but provide some mild tuning. Nothing beats synergy of well-matched components, but connecting them with *wire* that doesn't enhance them seems counterintuitive. If you want to, please do. YOUR system only has to sound good to YOU.
Joined
·
50 Posts
Only guage matters, but be careful of some unknown brand wires they turn green.
I once bough a big spool of speaker wire from a thrift store, I cut it and hooked it up to the stereo and the next day it was green. :hissyfit:
I once bough a big spool of speaker wire from a thrift store, I cut it and hooked it up to the stereo and the next day it was green. :hissyfit:
Joined
·
11,205 Posts
If "only guage matters" why is green a problem? Green is a nice color, and with that clear dielectric, I think it is pretty cool.
More than gauge does matter. Companies like MIT have made a lot of money on the fact that more matters. Whether their kind of tinkering with the parameters affecting signal transfer is worthwhile is another matter for one to consider. You won't find any of their cables in my system, but you won't see me argue that they don't affect the sound, either. The degree to which it is desirable, practical, or cost effective to consider other factors besides size is what is debatable. For me, it is not a high priority. For others it is so. I would like to see more discussion and testing regarding exactly how various parameters, including size, affect the sound. IME, it is likely that other parameters may have a greater effect on sound quality than gauge for typical lengths used for speakers. Those differences may or many not be desirable, however.
bhjazz,
I agree, to a point. There is certainly much that we don't know that we don't know. My issue with most obectivists is that they make assumptions about the completeness of our understanding. My problem with subectivists is that they make assumptions about the validity of their own perception and how it relates to reality and to the perception of others. Both sides are right in their proper context, to a degree, and when they meet and get into the pointless debates and slinging one-liners, both are wrong beyond the limited scope of their perspective. You have to frame these debates carefully or they get out of control. Context is VERY important. The thing to remember is that as long as we are careful about the context of our comments, provide a basis for statements of fact, and identify clearly and respect statements of opinion, we can have a civil discussion that informs and perhaps even advances knowledge on the matter. What we can do as moderators is steer the debate in the right direction, away from polarizing posts and insults and toward getting to better understanding.
I may be a little snake-bit by participation on other forums, so forgive me if my tolerance for "it is/it isn't" debates gets a little weak. We just do not need that here. We can do much better. We are at the same time able to have advertising from companies like Transparent and Neptune, while having extensive discussions about using Monoprice and Behrenger. We recognize that different people have different priorities and perceptions. I like it that way and that is what makes HTS a safe place to post and discuss one's ideas. The bottom line is that there are a range of equally valid and useful perspectives. Or, as it has been said better in the past..."the crux of the buiscuit is the apostrophe."
Informed debate is great. Polarizing and insulting commentary is pointless and harmful.
Joined
·
166 Posts
Re: "Tinning"-To Tin or Not to Tin...that is the question!!
Hello. What is "Tinning" and how does it have any effect on the quality of sound from the speaker wire to the speaker and how do you do it? Is it something recommended for general use? I have Atlantic Technologies speaker (4200e) and I was questioning the manufacturer about banana plugs for their speakers and they only recommended tinning the ends going to the speakers. Being a novice at this, what would you recommend (tinning or not) and how to do this? Is this something that someone never to use a solder iron would be able to do "CORRECTLY"?
Hello. What is "Tinning" and how does it have any effect on the quality of sound from the speaker wire to the speaker and how do you do it? Is it something recommended for general use? I have Atlantic Technologies speaker (4200e) and I was questioning the manufacturer about banana plugs for their speakers and they only recommended tinning the ends going to the speakers. Being a novice at this, what would you recommend (tinning or not) and how to do this? Is this something that someone never to use a solder iron would be able to do "CORRECTLY"?
Joined
·
15,060 Posts
Re: "Tinning"-To Tin or Not to Tin...that is the question!!
Tinning is simply soldering the ends of the speaker wire using a solder iron, some flux to clean and ensure a good coverage of the solder and a steady hand for about 20seconds with a 35watt solder iron. Apply just enough heat to the bare copper to cause the flux (solder paste) to evaporate and the solder that you feed onto the copper to melt making nice clean coverage without putting too much to make a blob.
Joined
·
166 Posts
Re: "Tinning"-To Tin or Not to Tin...that is the question!!
Thanks for the help!
Bob
tonyvdb, you made it sound so "simple"...I doubt that it is :innocent:, but , nevertheless, I am willing to try. How would you recommend someone like me (no experience) do this, and what do I need to make this happen? I don't need expensive equipment or anything like that...just something that gets the job done (any recommendations?).
Thanks for the help!
Bob
Joined
·
15,060 Posts
No problem Bob, all you need is the iron usually found at your local radio shack or even better a good electronics parts store for around $30 and the flux and solder is only a few bucks each. A solder iron made by Weller is my personal recommendation.
For starters just cut a small length of speaker wire and do some practice runs before tackling the one you want to do it on. And remeber not to make the wire too hot as to melt the plastic sheathing on the rest of the wire.
For starters just cut a small length of speaker wire and do some practice runs before tackling the one you want to do it on. And remeber not to make the wire too hot as to melt the plastic sheathing on the rest of the wire.
Joined
·
166 Posts
tonyvdb, thank you for that explanation. How long or large of a solder point should I make? I know this must seem completely ridiculous to you, but, I am more than willing to try and make my system the best I can (for "NO MONEY") :sn:, or very little! Is tinning something that you would recommend I do or just let things be as they are and not tin?
Thanks,
Bob.
Joined
·
15,060 Posts
I dont think more than about one inch of wire needs to be done. Remember it still needs to fit thorough the hole of the binding post.
Tinning is one of many ways to get a good connection but I personally like locking banana plugs, Tinning is a good inexpensive way to go.
Joined
·
166 Posts
tony, thank you. But, what do you mean by "locking banana plugs"? Is this different form the "Nakamichi Banana Plugs" that I just ordered and have sitting in my desk drawer? My speakers don't seem to be able to take anything but bare, or tinned, wire. How would I fit your locking banana plugs in my Atlantic Technology speaker terminals?
I have DIY speaker cables which I made from CAT-6 Ethernet cable. I used to have Kimber 8TC cable which is about $15/ft and was highly regarded a few years ago. My CAT-6 speaker cables were a huge improvement over the Kimber cables. The sound is more musical, detailed, and relaxed.
Take 3 CAT-6 cables and braid them together. Strip off the ends of each twisted pair wire. Twist the 12 colored wires together for the positive and combine the 12 white wires for the negative. I have used WBT banana plugs and various other cheaper banana plugs with excellent results. The cables need to be burned in with 300+ hours of music to sound their best.
Take 3 CAT-6 cables and braid them together. Strip off the ends of each twisted pair wire. Twist the 12 colored wires together for the positive and combine the 12 white wires for the negative. I have used WBT banana plugs and various other cheaper banana plugs with excellent results. The cables need to be burned in with 300+ hours of music to sound their best.
Joined
·
166 Posts
Reed, I've looked at the pics you fwd. and I have a quick question. I cut back the insulation like your pics showed and then twist the wire strands together. I then fold the twisted strands over about midpoint on the bare wire. I do this because I believe that by getting a larger diameter wire into my speaker terminal, It makes for a better contact point between my wire and the terminal. I do not know if this is correct reasoning or not and am just wondering if you or anyone else would have an opinion about this practice I am doing. I realize that buying larger wire may be the answer, unfortunately, I am in the "Job" hunting mode right now and not willing to put out more money for wire at this time.This is certainly true. In addition, wrapping geometry, and how tightly the strands are wrapped can make a difference. Though significant, these factors will have only a small to moderate effect on the overall wire diameter. In all cases, a stranded wire should be of greater diameter than an equivalent guage solid wire due to the inherent air gaps.
The kind of diameter difference I am talking about is illustrated in the picture below (curtsey Roger Russell):
![]()
Unscrupulous wire manufacturers can make a wire look to be of a heavy gauge when in fact it is only the insulation that is heavy, not the actual wire.
Thanks for any assistance.
Bob.
Joined
·
2,624 Posts
Do you have any measurements by chance? I'd be interested in seeing the F-R curves I think measurement by F-R is probably are best bet to understanding the differences in wire. Audibility perception is best left to a separate test. Which Floyd E. Toole actually has conducted. In certain types of music it doesn't take much of a difference to be noticeable.
I'm of the belief that we should start measuring with the mic first.
Joined
·
1,385 Posts
I've done measurements with pretty cheap common wire, and compared with high-end speaker wire (Tara Labs Air2). Switching the wires showed no difference, moving the microphone a few mm quelded significant change in frequency response.... I'll dig up the measurements if anyone is interested.
Joined
·
213 Posts
Bob, I wish you well on your job hunting.
Your practice of doubling over the bare wire is not a bad idea. In order to maximize the amplifier's control over the speaker voice coil, you want to minimize the impedance between the amplifier and the speaker. This effectively increases the damping ratio which is a good thing to do. Everything interconnection (amp binding post to speaker wire, speaker wire to speaker binding post, etc) between your amplifier and speaker is a point of resistance which you want to minimize. Increasing the contact surface area of the interconnection will help minimize that resistance.
Joined
·
2,624 Posts
I have a few questions regarding your post to facilitate more understanding.
What is Damping Ratio?
Why is the damping ratio important?
Can you show a graph that correlates improved response with increased damping?
Why do you say lower impedance loads are easier to drive when the conventional view says they are harder to drive?
Would the increased cost of speaker wire be more effectively use on room treatments?
Joined
·
11,205 Posts
I think a few things are getting mixed up here. I suspect he is thinking of Damping Factor, which is the ability of the amp to damp back EMF from the drivers. This is generally better in amps with lower output impedance. It is like braking a motor with a short.
I think he was also talking about reducing impedance in the wires, not in the load. You can affect frequency response with capacitance and inductance in the wires, and resistance causes losses overall. The Kimber wires, for instance (IIRC), have low inductance but higher capacitance than most, leading to a bit of a high frequency roll-off. A twisted pair like you would have in Cat5 ethernet cable would reduce the inductance as well. Most of this has so little effect at the distances and frequencies that we are talking about that it makes a small difference at best.
I agree, room treatments, or even just moving the listening position or speaker location a small amount will make far more difference in most cases.
Joined
·
213 Posts
Yes, Damping Factor is the correct term. However, the Damping Factor is a ratio of the speaker resistance to the source resistance. You are also correct in assuming I was talking about lowering the impedance in the wires and in particular the impendance in the interconnections between the amp and the speaker. I agree, that at the audio frequency range these things don't have a great impact, especially with amplifiers having bipolar outputs where the output impedance is very low as compared to Mosfet or transformer outputs.
Damping factor is measured with an 8Ω resistor right at the speaker terminals of the amp at a single frequency (usually 1k) so apart from it presenting a number that might hep market the amp, in real terms it's not much use. It also changes with frequency in most amps; SS is fairly even but increases at HF, and tube amps can vary quite a bit usually at each end of the spectrum. The design and implementation into circuit of the OPT will determine this.
With a SS amp with a published DF of 500, the Zout is 16mΩ. Add 3m of 14ga (6m loop distance) and you add another 49mΩ without contact resistance. Speakons are about 3mΩ so add another 12mΩ. Total = 77mΩ or DF = 104. A typical 8Ω driver has an Re of about 6Ω, so DF is realistically 78 a 6.4:1 difference from where we started.
Add xovers, reactances in all components and non linear output Z of all amps, and DF is meaningless.
Most fig 8 twin has reasonably low L and C. Keep the R low by choosing suitable gauge and length and forget about it.
With a SS amp with a published DF of 500, the Zout is 16mΩ. Add 3m of 14ga (6m loop distance) and you add another 49mΩ without contact resistance. Speakons are about 3mΩ so add another 12mΩ. Total = 77mΩ or DF = 104. A typical 8Ω driver has an Re of about 6Ω, so DF is realistically 78 a 6.4:1 difference from where we started.
Add xovers, reactances in all components and non linear output Z of all amps, and DF is meaningless.
Most fig 8 twin has reasonably low L and C. Keep the R low by choosing suitable gauge and length and forget about it.
21 - 40 of 40 Posts
