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"Until you find what you enjoy is preventing you from enjoying something else because it's not designed with a different type of music or movie in mind?"

And how do you find that out precisely?
Technically, you probably don't. You're more likely to become bitter and old still listening to your precious tube amps paired with horn speakers, 1970s vinyls; and absolutely loathing music that doesn't play well on your system thinking it's the music's fault, when really your system is the one ruining what could be a great experience for you. And you think movies are "just made so that you can't hear what they're saying...hmph.." And then you sit down in your grandkids' car and hear barry white's "soprano" voice as they've got treble +25 or something and you are just confused at how all but your own speakers sound abysmal to you.
 

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I believe we are butting heads. Must be a Calgary/Edmonton thing...:)

IF I had my 70s horns and played a movie with them and thought to myself…EWWWW that sounds horrid. I would not bury my head in the sand and blame something else.

HOWEVER, if I had a home theatre that I enjoyed and found the sound pleasing and someone else were to tell me it sounded horrid and I must do this that and the other thing to improve it. I would say PROVE it to My ears, if they can’t then whatever adjective they used to describe my systems is Their opinion and doesn’t matter in the least.
 

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:boxer::boxer::boxer::boxer: nah, I have nothing against deadmontonions.. y'all are our neighbors! :boxer::boxer::boxer::boxer:

HOWEVER, if I had a home theatre that I enjoyed and found the sound pleasing and someone else were to tell me it sounded horrid and I must do this that and the other thing to improve it. I would say PROVE it to My ears, if they can’t then whatever adjective they used to describe my systems is Their opinion and doesn’t matter in the least.
Which brings us right back to the whole idea of unfamiliarity with real instruments and voices!

It's easy to prove.

For example, you can be shown what an acoustic guitar sounds in your room like by playing the same guitar notes in front of you, and then comparing it with a poorly reproduced recording of the same notes being played on the same kind of guitar. If it sounds totally off, do you tell yourself that you like the sound of your speakers better than the sound of that very thing which your speakers are trying to reproduce? Doesn't that show the potential for those speakers to negatively impact your perception of the effort and talent that may have gone into a song or a movie soundtrack?

Things like instrument timbre, bass tightness, treble smoothness... they're definitely a lot harder to describe and comprehend than they are to experience. I'm actually convinced that even the worlds greatest loudspeaker still can't truly reproduce a live, unamplified performance. Whatever gets "close enough" that there's no inherent flaws is what I consider "good". My dream speaker probably isn't another person's dream speaker, but i know that if it is in fact "accurate" and the other person's dream speaker is also "accurate", the music can be enjoyed; yet the preferences of speaker may still be preserved. On the other hand, if the other person's dream speaker is inaccurate, their perception as a result changes, as does mine.

IF I had my 70s horns and played a movie with them and thought to myself…EWWWW that sounds horrid. I would not bury my head in the sand and blame something else.
That may have been hyperbole for hyperbole's sake, but would you not agree that you have at least some level of "belief" that what your speakers show you is truly reality? Your speakers are a tool capable of altering your perception, from "that girl's voice sure is annoying" (when it may not be at all in real life to your own ears!) to omitting/softening details like wind blowing during an emotional scene or making the dramatic flair of a pair of drums seem sound like a a door being banged on a couple times! That changes perception compared to intention.

More importantly, doesn't it intrigue you to get closer to the truth of things? Or are you complacent? That may be where occur differences lie... because my engineering background and mentality always has me curious about things.
 

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One mans bliss is anothers blight, go further and listen to the sound of one hand claping on paper, plastic and metal. Once you recite the words of power (such as dark, boomy, neutral, bright, smooth, bloated, rich, full, round, linear, boxy and nasal to name a few) and aligned them to the what you hear you can acheive understanding, or total confusion if your like me. I like the cave man approach.

Grog listen, to bunch of rocks, grog finds one like best, Grog take that rock.
Thank you, Andre! The clarity is genuinely refreshing. There is certainly plenty of room for your type of thinking on this forum. There really isn't much use in arguing your kind of position versus those of us who value the pursuit of artist intent over subjective audience preference. Either philosophy is valid for the individual. It can be helpful to determine which camp a questioner happens to be inclined toward before making a recommendation.

Many consumers don't even acknowledge that it's valuable and/or possible to achieve a substantial measure of authenticity in electronic reproduction of images and sound. They are like you, being happy to just grope, feel, and guess their way through much of life. We all have those interests that we approach superficially and intuitively. One of mine is wine. I like it, but don't bother studying it. Grog drink, not spend too much, depend on mate to pick what go good with mastodon steak.

I'm not happy with my home theater gear unless I can be assured that it will allow me to experience what the artist intended for his audience, with as little distortion, alteration, diminishment, or omission as possible. Yes, that includes controlling environmental conditions as well. But, this is one interest in which I invest a lot more care and intellect. It's also why I chose this field as my profession- there appears to be a shortage of home theater services providers with this philosophy.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"
 

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I think what people are refering to as ``boring`` isn`t the speaker - it`s the reality of the music being presented through it.

Now if people don't like the idea of hearing the music instead of the speaker, you will continue to get boom-and-sizzle type speakers in the under-1000 price range, which will continue to fuel the love-hate opinion of speaker brands, and continue to push the perception that you can't have a quality speaker under a certain price range, and continue the lazy sound engineering work done by "professionals" who feel a disconnect from the end user.

As a home theater forum, most of the people i'd assume care about accuracy. Accuracy ain't always pleasing, but it's always accurate, which means if something is designed to be pleasing, it will be nature be pleasing.

Our lack of familiarity with the sounds we hear through a speaker (and I won't claim to truly even know what true neutrality sounds like either...) leads us to think "wrongly" about the very material we hear through it.
I played the trumpet and drums, but each instrument has its own flare, and its impossible to know exactly what that flare truly is. I think good speakers and good components get us a close as possible, but you never can get the full truth given we are dealing with electronics. And as you said, is the recording good or bad? Sure there are some good ones out there, but a live trumpet and a recorded one, do not sound the same.... I used to have to record my trumpet playing and listen to it.

Accuracy isn't always accurate, your right, and speakers or gear that tell us that is the best we can get. Listening to Incubis thru my Energys, the singer sounds fine, thru the dyns, you can hear the untrained voice and inflections in his singing and how terrible the recording is.

Im definetly not rich, and yes, my speaker purchases are close to the $1k mark, I bought Dyn X16s because they gave me what many other speaker try to at $2k+. However I like having as little influence from the speakers as possible.
Which brings us right back to the whole idea of unfamiliarity with real instruments and voices!

For example, you can be shown what an acoustic guitar sounds in your room like by playing the same guitar notes in front of you, and then comparing it with a poorly reproduced recording of the same notes being played on the same kind of guitar. If it sounds totally off, do you tell yourself that you like the sound of your speakers better than the sound of that very thing which your speakers are trying to reproduce? Doesn't that show the potential for those speakers to negatively impact your perception of the effort and talent that may have gone into a song or a movie soundtrack?

Things like instrument timbre, bass tightness, treble smoothness... they're definitely a lot harder to describe and comprehend than they are to experience. I'm actually convinced that even the worlds greatest loudspeaker still can't truly reproduce a live, unamplified performance. Whatever gets "close enough" that there's no inherent flaws is what I consider "good". My dream speaker probably isn't another person's dream speaker, but i know that if it is in fact "accurate" and the other person's dream speaker is also "accurate", the music can be enjoyed; yet the preferences of speaker may still be preserved. On the other hand, if the other person's dream speaker is inaccurate, their perception as a result changes, as does mine.



That may have been hyperbole for hyperbole's sake, but would you not agree that you have at least some level of "belief" that what your speakers show you is truly reality? Your speakers are a tool capable of altering your perception, from "that girl's voice sure is annoying" (when it may not be at all in real life to your own ears!) to omitting/softening details like wind blowing during an emotional scene or making the dramatic flair of a pair of drums seem sound like a a door being banged on a couple times! That changes perception compared to intention.

More importantly, doesn't it intrigue you to get closer to the truth of things? Or are you complacent? That may be where occur differences lie... because my engineering background and mentality always has me curious about things.
I agree with the bolded statement.
 

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Oh well, I guess its just me..:)

I will listen to speaker A and B figure out which I like best then listen to C as compare the the favorite of A and B. Now the person that knows the sound that is closest to the was intended sayes "C your favorite?" "Yup I think those sound the best to my ears". "Ok, come and listen to these""WOW those sound great""Super, are you will to spend another $100""SURE, wrap'em up".

On the other hand "Super are you willing to spend another $2k""Ah...no"...."OK then, in that case you have gotten as close to what was intended as possible, come back when you win the lottery".

Let say you have done all your auditioning and found a set of speakers you really like the sound of (they even cost you a bit more). And you decided to research them online and all the reviews tell you that they are horrid (right up to the hardcore elite stereophiles) and they all recommend this other speaker instead. So you go out and listen to it and can't stand it, do you:

A. Believe everyone else and their graphs, readings, waterfalls, figure your hearing is ascew and you will learn to enjoy them or,

B. Buy the speakers you like.

IF you choose A you will eventually get used to that speakers sound, If you went back and listened to the other set at that time you would still hear a difference. Would you change your mind as to which is better? Maybe, Maybe not.
 

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When you're at a hi fi shop, you're listening to speakers.
When you're at home, you're using speakers to listen to movies and music.

There's a big difference. Human nature is such that even a 1-2 db tweeter level boost is enough that it would instantly alter our preference - i'd wager based on my auditions, that paradigm is guilty of this - there's an instant wow factor. The question however isn't which speaker impresses me with how it's designed to impress me. It's which speaker presents me with the goods. So yes - i would, and have in the past - chosen the speaker with the better FR graphs, the better perception as neutral, the more neutral design concept, however you want to word it.

It sounds silly when you word it like "choosing something someone else likes over something you yourself like". But it's NOT about "like" - it's about function. I'd "like" to have mcdonalds every day because of how good that big mac tastes. But you gotta eat your vegetables too. Likewise, the speakers themselves aren't the indulgence, it's their ability to bring to us the movies and music. Transparency gives them a better ability to do this.

The issue is that a speaker doesn't produce something - it reproduces. That is the key. I don't want a hard cover copy of a book if it's missing a chapter, even if i "like" it better than a soft cover copy. I don't want a 2D to 3D converter on my TV, even if I "like it". I don't want a calculator that calculates wrong, even if it's got a color screen. I don't want an education historic documentary to be replaced with the Quentin Tarantino version. Okay that last one's true.

So... I feel like we're just going around in circles so let's leave it here. Cheers.
 

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I think people should get whatever they like the best... with dynaudio, people may not like that they are so revealing of the truth of what they are listening to. Others may like the way a speaker makes their music sound. Some may like that a speaker is Bright, one may like that there is tons of Bass.

There is no right or wrong in speaker selection... hey if a $3000 Bose system is what sounds best to you over a $3000 pair of Amphion Prio 520s, then by all means by the Bose system.

I think you are taking it a little personal... and there is no reason to.
 

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Btw, it is Jim Salk. :)

I will admit, I was impressed with the Soundscape 12's. Too bad I don't have $12k for them. :spend:
DOH! And yeah, if i even had a pair o HT2-TLs I think I'd be happy for the rest of my life(okay not completely lol). Check out that Red Gum veneer... gorgeous!
 

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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
Original poster here,

After reconsidering my budget for speakers and receiver, I have decided to raise it to $3,000.00-3,500.00
Has anyone heard these new Definitive Technology BP8040 Super Towers? I have a pair of the original BP20's in my 2 channel system, and still like them a lot. I'm still trying to decide on a set of home theater set of speakers for my den. They will be hooked up to a new 55 inch Vizio and an OPPO BDP-93 Blue-Ray player. I'm considering an Onkyo TX-NR808 or Denon AVR-1911 receiver. I eventually will fill in the center channel and rear speakers. For right now, I'm starting out with the LR Speakers and Receiver. I've looked high and low for reviews on these speakers, and can't seem to find a one.
 

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I'm not a huge fan of Def Techs. They're great for expanding the soundstage of a stereo setup, but I prefer monopoles for my fronts in a home theater environment. But, if you like them, you should stick with them. I might just audition a few monopoles.

Will you be getting a separate sub?
 

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Discussion Starter · #34 ·
I'm not a huge fan of Def Techs. They're great for expanding the soundstage of a stereo setup, but I prefer monopoles for my fronts in a home theater environment. But, if you like them, you should stick with them. I might just audition a few monopoles.

Will you be getting a separate sub?
Part of the reason I was considering these BP8040 Super Towers is because they have a sub in each speaker.

http://www.definitivetech.com/Produ...h=Floor-Standing Speakers&productid=BP-8040ST
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 ·

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What do you guys think of these speakers w/ subs in each unit? They make a pretty convincing case of all the speakers in each unit being matched and balanced.
While I love the idea of true active 3-way speakers, I'm not a fan of "built-in sub speakers". I'd rather get an easy to drive passive 3 way and pair it with a sub. Personally I feel tower only needs to extend down to ~60hz and have the smooth rolloff of a sealed box or transmission line below that, and crossovers should be designed with output in mind (350hz and ~3800hz are imo good XO points in a 3 way tower). In a sense the Def Techs do some things right but the execution is just missing something.

Granted, finding a speaker that will fit what I just suggested above is simply not all that easy. The closest thing I can think of is probably the Salk V3 at $4000/pr and even then I don't for sure know its crossover frequencies.

Well I guess there's the Revel F12 at around $1000 a pair. It's a ported box but besides that I think it would blend perfectly with a subwoofer and give lots of great sound and quality output.
 

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Make sure you get a good sub, in HT a good sub can make or break a system. I'm partial to SVS, but there are others out there as well. Also, dont forget room treatment, a little $$ there can go a long ways.

Room treatments are my next priority.....and should have been one of my first. As for the Oppo vs PS3, if you game then the PS3, I still game on PS2 and I chose the Oppo 83 and as of this time I feel its the best thing I have spent $$ on in my system.

Good luck and enjoy, for researching and piecing together a system is the fun part...for me at least.
 

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Discussion Starter · #38 ·
While I love the idea of true active 3-way speakers, I'm not a fan of "built-in sub speakers". I'd rather get an easy to drive passive 3 way and pair it with a sub. Personally I feel tower only needs to extend down to ~60hz and have the smooth rolloff of a sealed box or transmission line below that, and crossovers should be designed with output in mind (350hz and ~3800hz are imo good XO points in a 3 way tower). In a sense the Def Techs do some things right but the execution is just missing something.
The more I think about this built in sub speaker, the more it seems like a novelty. If this was such a good idea, more mfg's would be doing the same thing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #39 ·
Make sure you get a good sub, in HT a good sub can make or break a system. I'm partial to SVS, but there are others out there as well. Also, dont forget room treatment, a little $$ there can go a long ways.

Room treatments are my next priority.....and should have been one of my first. As for the Oppo vs PS3, if you game then the PS3, I still game on PS2 and I chose the Oppo 83 and as of this time I feel its the best thing I have spent $$ on in my system.

Good luck and enjoy, for researching and piecing together a system is the fun part...for me at least.
This room has wall to wall carpet and floor to ceiling book shelves made of oak, adjacent wall has floor to ceiling storage cabinets made of oak at both corners.
The Oppo BDP-93 has just been added, got it from the first batch made available. What type of room treatments are you considering?
 

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This room has wall to wall carpet and floor to ceiling book shelves made of oak, adjacent wall has floor to ceiling storage cabinets made of oak at both corners.
The Oppo BDP-93 has just been added, got it from the first batch made available. What type of room treatments are you considering?


Basic bass traps & first reflection points.


But for me personally....I need wall to wall treatment for I have a concrete basement with tile on the floor at this moment.

as I mentioned before tho.... a good sub is a must. You can build up with your speakers. I'm excited for you getting the Oppo...that's AWESOME!!!!

What ever AVR you get "my opinion only" it needs at least MultEQ-XT and preouts for an external amp in case you ever decide to go that rout. I have the Onk 1007 and I feel it was worth every penny for I do not plan on 3D, I use the Oppo for my video and I have an ASEQ for my dual PBU's.
 
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