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Discussion Starter #21
Hey Chuck,
Thanks for sharing this insight with us.
I would not have a problem using a center channel if I can convince myself that I can go with a perforated screen.

I have noticed that on some recordings it seemed like they skimped on the dialog being sent to the mains.
In this instance, I found it hard to understand everything being said.
I have had many other experiences where this was not an issue.
My mains Image vertically quite well , but fall a bit short setting on the floor,depending again on the recording.

I have a lot to learn about "Theatre Sound"....Looks like I have come to the right place.
Thanks
Darrel :)
 

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Darrel Hawthorne said:
H
I have noticed that on some recordings it seemed like they skimped on the dialog being sent to the mains.
Allow me to present my own experience with that problem.

For me it was a center speaker problem and I think that's pretty common. The prime example is on the DVD The Matrix (the first Matrix film) where Neo "follows the white rabbit" ie. sees the chick with the rabbit tattoo and decides to go to the bar after all. He meets Trinity for the first time. In that scene she whispers to him through the center channel while Rob Zombie is blasting on the mains.

Now, that's a recipe for disaster and if you've ever seen the movie maybe you know the exact scene I'm talking about. It's a good test of your center channel's dispersion.

My old center speakers were an M-T-M design. That's a two way speaker, two midranges and one tweeter in the middle laid out side by side by side.

Usually, that's just a poor design. You want to avoid if you can afford to. This is why MTM center channel speakers are almost always cheaper than the way they "should" be designed which is a proper three way speaker with tweeter atop a midrange with woofers on either side. Or just use another front/main speaker as your centner.

Of course the above paragraph paints with a broad brush, there are always exceptions.

If you look at the speaker line from most manufacturers the MTM is almost always much cheaper. You have to really step up to get something better.

The trouble with MTM is an inherent difficulty with lobing. Lobing is a problem with the dispersion of sound as it radiates outward from in front of the speaker.

I honestly can't get any more detailed than that but it's a common problem. I went out and replaced my 15 lb MTM speaker with a beefy 45 lb three way speaker and the difference is night and day.

I can now hear Trinity loud and clear. No longer am I boosting the midrange during movies and then cranking it back down when the action really starts up. I know how annoying that is.
 
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Discussion Starter #23
Hey Wayde,
" Man what do you say to something like that"? So your going to save the world.....man , what a mind job !"
Yes I do know that movie. LOL

I would be running one of my Silver Iris 15" Coaxials as my center, That's why I need to locate it behind the screen. The ideal set up for me would be to run a trio of these across the front as L-C-R .

So , you think that's air your breathing?
Darrel :yes:
 

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Darrel Hawthorne said:
Yes I do know that movie. LOL


Darrel :yes:
It's a classic! I love the first one, didn't care for the second so I didn't bother seeing the third. The first is a perfect standalone story.

A forum survey on DVDTalk once asked what your first DVD purchase was. I should start that one here in the DVD forum.

The Matrix was head and shoulders the most popular "first" DVD purchase.
 

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Darrel Hawthorne said:
...I have noticed that on some recordings it seemed like they skimped on the dialog being sent to the mains...
On most recievers (including mine) when the Center Channel is set to "none" the CC information is split and added to both the L & R channels. The information should not be lost.

My L & R speakers are pretty close together because my TV is in a corner (living room considerations). My TV is also in an armoire. I have a matching CC speaker, but I haven't been using it because it just doesn't sound great above my TV in the armoire. (And its M-T-M, maybe that makes it worse.) I get a rock solid phantom center from my mains, and the dialog is quite clear. I actually prefer the phantom to the speaker being over the TV.
 
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Discussion Starter #26
Hey Ayreonaut,

On most recievers (including mine) when the Center Channel is set to "none" the CC information is split and added to both the L & R channels. The information should not be lost.
I do not have a receiver picked out yet. I am sure having this feature would be a big help.
I am running a flea powered SET amp ( Don't laugh) :rofl: :)

I try and remember to set up the DVD for 2.1 whenever it's available.....
Thanks
Darrel :)
 

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Darrel Hawthorne said:
I would be running one of my Silver Iris 15" Coaxials as my center, That's why I need to locate it behind the screen. The ideal set up for me would be to run a trio of these across the front as L-C-R .
Darrel :yes:
Do it, do it, do it,....:hail:
 

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Darrel Hawthorne said:
So, Do you use your center channel ?
I am seriously thinking I could very well live without it.. The phantom center stereo image is so strong and lucid , I doubt that the addition of yet another sound source would be necessary or even welcome....
We are many months away from actually moving the projector down to the theatre room, so I am basically watching movies in a well treated, dedicated 2 channel audio room. Possible not something I should get used to.....LOL
I suspect that my theatre will be much more challenging to get to sound this good..
I do use my center. I tried using a phantom because the position the center is currently in is not ideal. But I found that off axis, the speech wasn't locked to the screen in the same way. Secondly, it meant loosing a 120w channel and I like it quite loud. Thirdly, in my system at least, it just wasn't as clear without it.

Darrel Hawthorne said:
Hearing program material outside the plane of the front speakers is very common in high end 2 channel setups. It is also very recording specific and room dependent. Getting sounds to appear to come from a point behind you ( without surrounds) is also possible but indeed less common. This to us, is what separates the men from the boy's..... 3D Holographic imaging is one of my primary focuses in 2 channel playback.
Darrel :)
Indeed I'am quite familiar the imaging capabilities of serious 2 channel setups. A friend of mine reviews for TNT Audio and his system is a serious reality check for how far behind multichannel audio is in many respects. He often comments on my restricted soundstage when listening to CD. He is still stunned by the solidity of panned effects though, as even the best 2 channel setups just can't make a sound hang in mid air over you.

Russell
 
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Discussion Starter #30
Hey Darren,
That's an interesting design.
Looks like a pretty simple build....
Do you run two or four? Could they be inverted and located close to the ceiling? Or both above and below?

These could be a fun DIY project.
Thanks for sharing
Darrel
 

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Darrel Hawthorne said:
Hey Darren,
That's an interesting design.
Looks like a pretty simple build....
Do you run two or four? Could they be inverted and located close to the ceiling? Or both above and below?

These could be a fun DIY project.
Thanks for sharing
Darrel

I run two for now. They are designed to be placed 16" from the ceiling either on the side walls or back wall. I have them on the side wall. The baffle is tilted at 10 degrees toward the listening position and the drivers fire into the ceiling then ricoche to the listening position so you compensate for the extra distance in the speaker setup. I was skeptical before I built them but must say I love them. My direct radiating surrounds were far too localized, these create rich ambient sound and increase the rear stage depth dramatically.

You can't invert them by design as they require the ceiling surface to function as designed. It took me an evening to build the boxes and another 3 days (mostly drying time) to apply the proper finish.

Oh, P.S. I'm setting my computer up with REW so my testing of the B.A.D 15" drivers should speed up a bit!

Darren
 

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Years ago I read about the possible advantages of pointing any direct radiating surround speakers toward the ceiling. I tried it back when I was running 5.1 and liked it much better than pointed toward the listening position. Anyone who is not satisfied with their direct radiating surrounds should at least try pointing them at the ceiling and find out if it improves the soundfield for them.
 

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Darren said:
Hi Darrel,

I'm using GR-Research AV1RS http://www.gr-research.com/kits/av1rs.htm, a fairly uniqe design which I find to be very good. I used to have direct radiating but thses are much better, the effects aren't localized and are much more natural sounding.
Thanks to you Darren I think I have found my next speaker building project:T

I have been looking for a surround design that would be small and have hi WAF but also give good surround effects and the AV1rs might just do it. The idea is simple but makes perfect sense.

I am currently using direct radiating inwalls in the rear of my room .These work fine for multichannel music but not so great for movies.I need something that is less directional.

Anyway thanks for revelation.
Fred
 

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Interesting thread,
Catnip and Aryenaut (sorry about spelling). As far as firing speakers at the ceiling, here is a speaker you would like. Take a look at the column surrounds. The guru at M&K tells me that using the smallest version, the cs-22, gives incredible results. You can put these anywhere behind you, even right against your theater chair, and the sound fires up and to the sides of you. Great for HT with sounds like choppers flying over, rain, any ambient noise. I listened to the larger pair recently, and it really was impressive. Sounded like sounds were everywhere around me, and in the right place. It sounds like basically the same thing you two did, only it was bipoles as well. So 2 sides and a top speaker.
Roly
M&K Sound SURROUND SOUND SPEAKERS PAGE
 

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Thanks to you Darren I think I have found my next speaker building project:T

I have been looking for a surround design that would be small and have hi WAF but also give good surround effects and the AV1rs might just do it. The idea is simple but makes perfect sense.

I am currently using direct radiating inwalls in the rear of my room .These work fine for multichannel music but not so great for movies.I need something that is less directional.

Anyway thanks for revelation.
Fred
Let me know how it goes and definitely post pics. I'm very happy with mine.
 
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