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Discussion Starter #1
Hey I had a Monitor Audio RSW12, and so far that is outperforming and intigrating better than my new PC13.

I have ran and Re ran Mcacc on my pioneer SC-LX72 amp and that is on about -3db for the subwoofer.

I have turned off the following:

Disable the HPF
Disable the LPF
Set volume to -20dB which is now -6db as I could hear nothing in -20
Set room eq off
Set phase and delay both to 0
Set subwoofer tune to 16Hz (to match "one port open" setup).


Because I have no choice were the subwoofer goes, its directly on my right hand side in the corner and I can hear it rumble, but not integrate as its really annoying. I am sitting maybe 1 meter from it.

My RSW12 was in this position and it was amazing, I am on the verge of returning this thing, as I paid £1600.00 for it which is around $2000.00 and so far my $400.00 RSW12 is smashing this PC13.

So far I know the PC13 will go lower, but I really need to turn up my Amp just to get this depth.

This is were my Pioneer vs RSW12 settings were, and then I will show you were my PC13 setting are:

PIONEER AMP: -20 DB
RSW12 - 11 o'clock
PIONEER AMP Doing all the crossover duties.
PIONEER AMP: SUB -9DB

Now for the PC13.
PIONEER AMP NEEDS TO BE AROUND -15 to -10 db, which is really loud for my RX6 speakers and MCACC.
PC13 Ultra is at -8db right now, but I can hear it rumble, and its not tight like my RSW12.
PIONEER DOING CROSSOVER
PIONEER AMP -3db, This is a lot louder than the RSW12.

Can anyone give me any tips or hints, like I said I can hear a rumble in my right ear and its getting on my nerves, and so far my RSW12 is destroying this PC13, The RSW12 was better on tight bass and integration, but now I can hear every rumble from the PC13, And I can hear it directly in my right ear, and when I cant hear the rumble, I get nothing, no bass, no integration.

I am watching TV now at low volume, I have not touched the amps except to turn the volume down, and I cannot hear the SVS now, but I used to hear the RSW12 and little bits of bass on the same tracks.

What are your guys settings and hints, I would really appreciate it, as I am going mad.

Thanks
 

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In the Pioneer (refer to page 121 in your OM for more details on manual set-up):

- All speakers set to Small with a speaker/subwoofer crossover assigned for each channel which is appropriate for the bass extension and output capabilities of that speaker. This even applies to your RX6 floor standers.

- While I don't advise it, if you feel compelled to run your RX6 speakers on Large (full-range), then set the subwoofer to Plus. Make sure all other speakers are set to Small with an appropriate speaker/subwoofer crossover selected. This usually will not sound as good as all speakers set to Small, but it will ensure the subwoofer sees all the bass in the front L/R channels.

- Disable all dynamic range compression algorithms (Midnight Mode and anything similar).

- Disable all THX Ultra/Ultra/2 options for the subwoofer, particularly Boundary Gain compensation.

- If your AVR has an LFE channel attenuation control, make sure it is set to 0. This is not the subwoofer channel trim/level control. I scanned through your OM and didn't see a reference to it, but some of the older Pio AVRs are notorious for still having this control.

- Make sure all of your source inputs are bitstreamed (HDMI, digital coax, digital optical) and the AVR is seeing and decoding DD, DTS or DD TrueHD, DTS Master Audio. If you are sending analog signals to the AVR for any reason, let me know - it's generally not a good idea.

At the PC13U Subwoofer:

- All ports open.
- Subwoofer Tune in menu set to 20 Hz.
- Volume to 0 dB (the amp will be allowed to make the most power at 0 dB).

Play some familiar source material and then adjust the subwoofer channel level to blend with the speakers. Don't worry about where the subwoofer channel level end-up relative to your old subwoofer - due to differences in input sensitivity between the two amps, comparisons like this have no real meaning/significance.

Let me know how it goes.......thanks.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Hey thanks for replying with such a detailed explenation.

Are you sure about setting the SVS to 0db? seems rather high, but you are the expert.

Also played around with some settings on my Pioneer amp and it seemed to have helped as when I ran MCACC it reset all the settings and I forgot to re-adjust them.

Can I ask while I got your ear, what do all the slope settings mean and room comp ect? I am new to all this.

Also what about the PEq, should I leave these disabled? I have PEQ 1 enabled, and cant figure out how to disable it.

Also if I am setting my SVS to 0db, then what do you sugest I put my amp to? it goes from -10db to +10db.
My RSW12 was at 11oclock with my amp at -8db, I just thought setting the svs to 0 was very high as it goes from -100db to 0, so this is the max setting.

My amp does have a LFE, and it was set to off, so set it to 0.

And you think the all ports open and 20hz is the ideal setting?

It seems to be getting better the more it is on and playing.

Thanks again Ed.
 

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Hey thanks for replying with such a detailed explenation.

Are you sure about setting the SVS to 0db? seems rather high, but you are the expert.

Also played around with some settings on my Pioneer amp and it seemed to have helped as when I ran MCACC it reset all the settings and I forgot to re-adjust them.

Can I ask while I got your ear, what do all the slope settings mean and room comp ect? I am new to all this.

Also what about the PEq, should I leave these disabled? I have PEQ 1 enabled, and cant figure out how to disable it.

Also if I am setting my SVS to 0db, then what do you sugest I put my amp to? it goes from -10db to +10db.
My RSW12 was at 11oclock with my amp at -8db, I just thought setting the svs to 0 was very high as it goes from -100db to 0, so this is the max setting.

My amp does have a LFE, and it was set to off, so set it to 0.

And you think the all ports open and 20hz is the ideal setting?

It seems to be getting better the more it is on and playing.

Thanks again Ed.

0 dB won't hurt the amp and it will make the most power at that setting. Obviously you still need to level match the subwoofer with the speakers, but the idea is to dial-in as much gain as possible at the sub amp and then lower your AVR sub channel level to at/near its lowest setting. If you still can't level match the sub, then start dropping gain at the sub as needed.

If you are using MCACC to level match, then check the sub channel level after running it. If it bottoms out at -10, that means the gain was too high at the subwoofer. Drop the gain at the sub a bit and re-run - repeat this iterative process until the sub channel level comes off the bottom of the control range (i.e., -9). Then you'll know that is the true level matched setting (which is a combination of the sub gain and the AVR sub channel level). If after that point you want to run the sub hotter, increase gain at the subwoofer first.

Leave all other menu options (low pass, high pass, room gain, PEQ) disabled/off for now.

Until we get your digital bass management settings and overall subwoofer calibration level correct, leave the subwoofer in the 20 Hz mode - this will have the most muscular presentation on most source material. We can always tune to 16 Hz later very easily.

What is the range of your LFE channel attenuation control? 0 to -10 and then OFF? Frankly I'm astonished Pioneer still includes this control - it should not even be present in any AVR IMO. Aside from some ancient DTS music DVDs which had an incorrectly mastered LFE channel level, the need for an LFE channel attenuation control does not exist.

The level of the LFE channel relative to the redirected bass of any speaker channels set to Small is fixed and correct at the time of DVD mastering and encoding, and it should not be tampered with, much less giving the user the ability to turn it off completely. If your LFE channel was truly turned off (and I have personally witnessed this set-up error on an older Pioneer AVR), you were not hearing any of the ".1" channel on your DVDs.

With all speakers set to Small and the LFE channel control set to 0 dB (i.e., not attenuated), the subwoofer will receive the redirected bass from all speaker channels (and trust me depending on the DVD there is full-range bass in every speaker channel including the surrounds), and also the LFE channel - all in correct proportion and level. That alone should make a huge difference and then after we get the gain optimized on the amp and get the sub calibration level tweaked to your personal preference, you should be all set.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thanks again.

I cant figure out how to disable the PEQ 1 on the subwoofer, I played with it a little and cant get it disabled.

I press it and it says enabled, when you press it again is goes into the settings, and its set at different levels and PEQ2 is disabled.

Also I have changed to 0 on the subwoofer amp, do you want me to run mcacc at this level? Or do you want me to start at say 15 on the subwoofer amp, and if that runs ok, then try 10 and re-run mcacc ect.. Until mcacc says it cant run it as its too high?

And yes the Pioneer SC-LX72 has a LFE in the menu were you can switch it from off to 0 to -20.

Thanks again Ed
 

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Thanks again.

I cant figure out how to disable the PEQ 1 on the subwoofer, I played with it a little and cant get it disabled.

I press it and it says enabled, when you press it again is goes into the settings, and its set at different levels and PEQ2 is disabled.

Also I have changed to 0 on the subwoofer amp, do you want me to run mcacc at this level? Or do you want me to start at say 15 on the subwoofer amp, and if that runs ok, then try 10 and re-run mcacc ect.. Until mcacc says it cant run it as its too high?

And yes the Pioneer SC-LX72 has a LFE in the menu were you can switch it from off to 0 to -20.

Thanks again Ed
Enter into the PEQ menu and navigate to the level control. Set the level at 0.0 and click to enter the value. Then you will see 'PEQ Disabled' flash on the screen.

You can attack the level matching from either end per your above post - my preference is to start at 0 and work down if needed. Only lower the gain at the sub enough to get the AVR sub channel level to come-off the -10 floor. And if you want to run the sub hotter after you know the level matched settings, add gain at the sub first.

The LFE channel should always be left at 0 dB (unattenuated). I did find that reference in your owner's manual...amazing Pioneer still offers this control option. Even more tragic is that yours was set to OFF (meaning you were never hearing anything in the LFE channel). Their justification for this control is to prevent subwoofer overload - I say if your subwoofer is overloading with the LFE channel at its intended level relative to that of the speaker channel bass, then either turn-down the master volume or invest in a better subwoofer.

I also see options for Dynamic Range Compression (set to Auto) and Midnight Mode (set to Off).
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Yeh I dont think I ever touched that LFE on the amp. Thanks for the tutorial.

I will have to go up and check the VSX-921 in the bedroom to make sure it doesnt have the same thing.

I will have a full play with it tomorrow. I might start at -5db on the subwoofer and see were that takes me.

Will take off the PEQ as well.

Thanks again Ed, it is really appreciated, and also great coming from a SVS specialist. :wow:

I wish I knew about REW and had the stuff to use it, but dont understand it at all.
 

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Yeh I dont think I ever touched that LFE on the amp. Thanks for the tutorial.

I will have to go up and check the VSX-921 in the bedroom to make sure it doesnt have the same thing.

I will have a full play with it tomorrow. I might start at -5db on the subwoofer and see were that takes me.

Will take off the PEQ as well.

Thanks again Ed, it is really appreciated, and also great coming from a SVS specialist. :wow:

I wish I knew about REW and had the stuff to use it, but dont understand it at all.
You are most welcome! We appreciate you supporting our brand, and I'm very confident that when your bass management settings and gain/calibration levels are optimized, that you will find the PC13U to meet/exceed your expectations for world-class bass. :T
 
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