[lcaillo]

Several posts have been removed and this thread will be watched carefully. Everyone should read the furum rules very carefully. We are not here to accuse manufacturers of lying in their literature and are not here to simply criticize others. One can state facts without condescending and without bashing.

 

[lcaillo]

With respect to the topic of the thread, I would expect modest, if any audible improvements.

Manufacturers nearly always look to ways to cut corners. Producing a high value product requires that the corners that make the least difference be cut as much as possible. The difference in cost of crossover parts compared to the difference in sound is one place where many manufacturers choose to cut costs. Generally, IME, it is a reasonable trade-off. I might be concerned in a speaker much more expensive, but in this price range, driver selection and matching are far more significant.

I have to question the assumptions that are going into this project. Lots of it sounds like hype from manufacturers rather than proven electrical properties.

 

[Talley]

With respect to the topic of the thread, I would expect modest, if any audible improvements.

Manufacturers nearly always look to ways to cut corners. Producing a high value product requires that the corners that make the least difference be cut as much as possible. The difference in cost of crossover parts compared to the difference in sound is one place where many manufacturers choose to cut costs. Generally, IME, it is a reasonable trade-off. I might be concerned in a speaker much more expensive, but in this price range, driver selection and matching are far more significant.

I have to question the assumptions that are going into this project. Lots of it sounds like hype from manufacturers rather than proven electrical properties.

Well so the other thing my uncle did say was the capacitors were large and that the resisters were heavy duty rated with the specs they offered.

He was actually quite stunned at the robust parts and mentinoed that by going to audiophile grade parts would cost an arm and a leg to do to get the same ratings.

 

[AudiocRaver]

Just adding my 2cents worth.

• Having done audio and digital engineering and design work professionally, it can be very difficult to identify parts by sight. It is true that specialty parts, ie expensive caps for audio upgrade for instance, are usually better identified, but not always. Overseas sources are notoriously hard to ID, even caps made by bigger-name sources (Sprague, Vishay) are not always easy to ID.
• Components with excellent specs and tight tolerances are not necessarily expensive. They are usually not the cheapest, but may run $5 each instead of $1 each (just an example), and properly specified, perhaps even hand-picked, can yield excellent performance. The way SVS's speakers sound and compare in their market segments (I have heard the Ultras and Primes), I would assess that they do not skimp on crossover parts. Specialty components might provide a tiny improvement, perhaps an audible change, but I doubt it would be big.
• Their crossover design for the Ultra is actually quite complex, with two tweeter to mid crossover frequencies. It is well thought out, anything but cheap or simplistic (not saying you called it that).
• They are yours to play with.
• It does not sound like you are slamming SVS, but you are implying they left a lot of room for improvement, which I doubt.
• My opinion: I am far more interested in your opinion than your uncle's, all due respect. He is welcome to get is own ID and talk to us directly.:bigsmile:

 

[Talley]

Just adding my 2cents worth.

• Having done audio and digital engineering and design work professionally, it can be very difficult to identify parts by sight. It is true that specialty parts, ie expensive caps for audio upgrade for instance, are usually better identified, but not always. Overseas sources are notoriously hard to ID, even caps made by bigger-name sources (Sprague, Vishay) are not always easy to ID.
• Components with excellent specs and tight tolerances are not necessarily expensive. They are usually not the cheapest, but may run $5 each instead of $1 each (just an example), and properly specified, perhaps even hand-picked, can yield excellent performance. The way SVS's speakers sound and compare in their market segments (I have heard the Ultras and Primes), I would assess that they do not skimp on crossover parts. Specialty components might provide a tiny improvement, perhaps an audible change, but I doubt it would be big.
• Their crossover design for the Ultra is actually quite complex, with two tweeter to mid crossover frequencies. It is well thought out, anything but cheap or simplistic (not saying you called it that).
• They are yours to play with.
• It does not sound like you are slamming SVS, but you are implying they left a lot of room for improvement, which I doubt.
• My opinion: I am far more interested in your opinion than your uncle's, all due respect. He is welcome to get is own ID and talk to us directly.:bigsmile:

I wish my uncle would but he has zero interest. Outside his busy work schedule he spends all his time with his hi-fi and/or his race cars to even bother with the online forums.

He will agree with you. The crossover design is very complex and he has never seen anything as complex as the Ultra towers crossover design before. He also says very big capacitors and resistors too. Maybe the design while not using "eye candy" parts is very robustly designed and built and we all know that design cost more than parts.

just remember.... engineers never ever make mistakes.... they make revisions

 

[Talley]

And to clarify.

I love my SVS Ultras! They are very good and best I have ever owned to date.

..still doesn't mean I want to tweak/learn every aspect there is of audio equipment.

 

[lcaillo]

So how do you plan to measure and match the components you replace with identical values in "higher quality" parts? What type of equipment do you have and what are characteristics are you going to measure? Or do you plan to just assume the marked values are correct, tolerances are of minimal significance, and that the only values that matter are the labelled values?

Having undertaken this kind of project before, and having worked with parts for decades, I have to say that the likilihood of learning much without some test equipment is not very high.

 

[Talley]

So how do you plan to measure and match the components you replace with identical values in "higher quality" parts? What type of equipment do you have and what are characteristics are you going to measure? Or do you plan to just assume the marked values are correct, tolerances are of minimal significance, and that the only values that matter are the labelled values?

Having undertaken this kind of project before, and having worked with parts for decades, I have to say that the likilihood of learning much without some test equipment is not very high.

My uncle wanted schematics first. He would also be the one spec'ing the parts since he is more knowledgeable than I am to the specific parts on what to use.... But I've also decided not to based on SVS discussion. We can however keep the discussion going.

He does own some very elaborate testing equipment. LCR meter, impedance analyzer but owns more tube testers then I would know what to do with. Lab grade tube testers that cost $5k.

Being an electrician anything else we would need I would just rent from our company that rents and also does all of our annual certifications on our communicators and process meters.

 

[lcaillo]

In my view, the only way to make a comparison to see if the components sound different is to carefully match the parameters of each and both listen and measure the frequency response of each crossover section while driving the speakers.

 

[Savjac]

I believe it "may" improve performance as all manufacturers have to meet an internal price point. However, how much of a difference is a matter for speculation imo. No several hundred percent is not reasonable and may just be an off handed statement. 3% might make more sense unless your crossovers are old or breaking down. I have changed the crossovers in my older Klipsch with new Crites models and the differences were notable but the bigger difference was changing the tweeter to a newer version. I have replaced the components in a pre amp and amp with very good results.
I would have to go with everyone here and say that the difference would probably not be worth the cost of parts and the time to do it

 

[tesseract]

Sounds like a lot of expenditure with little net gain, and a great opportunity to make the speakers worse. I wouldn't mess with the recipe.

You cannot look at passive prices and brand names and judge their audibility. This is done by measurement, then critical listening, making changes, more measuring/listening... wash, rinse, repeat. That is AFTER talented engineers design a rough outline for the crossover, via sophisticated software. This heavy lifting has already been done. It is very doubtful that you can improve on their considerable effort with just a few off the cuff passive changes. I have no doubt it can go quite wrong.

I know of at least three gentlemen that do this type of aftermarket crossover hot rod work. You will need to send them one of your Ultra's, so they can do what I described above. That is the only way I could ever recommend a project like this, and it is because they will do it correctly. And, still, your net gain would be a few percent, at best.

 

[kingnoob]

My uncle wants me to upgrade the crossover within the SVS Ultra. anybody have any experience of modifying crossovers? I had taken a photo of the crossover board when I swapped my warrantied woofer out and he claims the caps are about 20 cents and the inductors are iron core and I could really benefit from installing air core inductors and audiophile grade caps and said I will see a 200-300% improvement with the sound of the speakers from doing this.

...at the cost of voiding warranty obviously.

Anyone here have experience with this and/or want to comment?

IF you dont like the speakers buy something else, I guess.
High ggrade speakers have good X overs such as these.:T.
ONLY budget or, vintage speakers need XO upgrades.
I am happy with klpisch Icon for now. I got them 50% off blk friday , find something you like!
Sad Bestbuy discontinued them

 

[prerich]

A 200-300% improvement? Really? Your uncles implication suggests SVS designed a mediocre speaker to save a few bucks on the crossover of their premier speaker line. I really doubt that myself.

I'm with Tony - this is just a very bad idea, one that should be dismissed before it goes too much further and a costly mistake is made.

That's a lot of improvement (200-300% :unbelievable: )! Coming from the Klipsch camp - we have a tendency to rework, modify, and upgrade our crossovers. I believe the team over at SVS is wonderful and knows what they are doing. However I'm also a firm believer that sacrifices are made in order to reach a certain profit point. It's like...you're not going to get a $2k SVS speaker that comes with Jupiter or Mundorf caps:spend: .

I believe (if your uncle really knows what he's doing) could make some sonic improvements - but not 200-300%, and would those improvements be worth the money you spend on them. You are about to enter the dark side otherwise known as DIY - a lot of things can go wrong here, but sometimes - they can work out fine.

 

[Talley]

That's a lot of improvement (200-300% :unbelievable: )! Coming from the Klipsch camp - we have a tendency to rework, modify, and upgrade our crossovers. I believe the team over at SVS is wonderful and knows what they are doing. However I'm also a firm believer that sacrifices are made in order to reach a certain profit point. It's like...you're not going to get a $2k SVS speaker that comes with Jupiter or Mundorf caps:spend: .

I believe (if your uncle really knows what he's doing) could make some sonic improvements - but not 200-300%, and would those improvements be worth the money you spend on them. You are about to enter the dark side otherwise known as DIY - a lot of things can go wrong here, but sometimes - they can work out fine.

I'm leaving them as is for now. I'm working on the acoustics of my room which will yield 1,000% improvement for the $500 i'm investing.

 

[prerich]

With respect to the topic of the thread, I would expect modest, if any audible improvements.

Manufacturers nearly always look to ways to cut corners. Producing a high value product requires that the corners that make the least difference be cut as much as possible. The difference in cost of crossover parts compared to the difference in sound is one place where many manufacturers choose to cut costs. Generally, IME, it is a reasonable trade-off. I might be concerned in a speaker much more expensive, but in this price range, driver selection and matching are far more significant.

I have to question the assumptions that are going into this project. Lots of it sounds like hype from manufacturers rather than proven electrical properties.

Excellent - I hadn't read all the way through the thread yet - but you've stated exactly what I believe to be true.

 

[prerich]

I'm leaving them as is for now. I'm working on the acoustics of my room which will yield 1,000% improvement for the $500 i'm investing.

Oh yes!!!! Work on your room!!!!! I've owned speakers that sound great in one room - make some changes to the room - then they didn't sound as good. The room is the other component that you actually hear other than your speakers!

(I'm actually glad that you didn't mess with the crossovers:sweat: - if anything - I would keep the stocks and if your uncle is up to snuff - have him build an upgraded pair from the schematics if they are available).

 

[prerich]

Well so the other thing my uncle did say was the capacitors were large and that the resisters were heavy duty rated with the specs they offered.

He was actually quite stunned at the robust parts and mentinoed that by going to audiophile grade parts would cost an arm and a leg to do to get the same ratings.

Yes they would cost an arm, and a leg, and a few internal organs as well!!! :spend::spend:

 

[Savjac]

I'm leaving them as is for now. I'm working on the acoustics of my room which will yield 1,000% improvement for the $500 i'm investing.

Great idea Talley and one that I need to take more seriously in my room.

 

[tesseract]

I'm leaving them as is for now. I'm working on the acoustics of my room which will yield 1,000% improvement for the $500 i'm investing.

Good move. I am about to invest the same amount into my room.

 

[Lumen]

Good move, indeed! I invested too much in my room ( begin sounds of migrating toward DIY )

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