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Thanks for doing the tests Ethan, an endeavour beyond most of our reach since we don't have access to multiple products. :TT
Your highlighting the difference made by speaker placement, including ensuring that they are at the correct height, emphasizes the fact that people should be spending most of their effort optimising their layout before considering any other treatment.

-Bill
 

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Thanks Ethan, I just got done reading it and it is very good info. :T:T
 

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OK... how about this then. How do you measure sonics? You can't... or can you? Nobody has a calibrated file to go with their own ears so you must rely on your ears and your brain. If your brain can be fooled by tricks... then the product works.
 

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OK... how about this then. How do you measure sonics? You can't... or can you? Nobody has a calibrated file to go with their own ears so you must rely on your ears and your brain. If your brain can be fooled by tricks... then the product works.
Your brain can be tricked by your feeling good about your purchase...doesn't mean it actually worked, it just means you think it does.
 

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I wonder if anyone has done a study on endorphin levels after buying something new.
Whether it be a set of speaker, an album or anything else and how this affects your perceived listening pleasure.
Did you ever see the Dolby Labs article about amps... The guy setup an amp that didn't work (as I recall a tube amp), and then appeared to be switching between the 2 amps being tested, and most of the people picked the nice looking tube amp that didn't even work, when they were listening to the same amp all along. LOL
 

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I didn't see that actual article. However, listener bias is a real problem. (You may have noticed that I rant Ad Nauseum about double blind tests, but they are rarely carried out. :eek:lddude: )

With the Isolation products this would be a relatively simple task as they could hide what was below the speaker by a black cloth curtain and let the listener evaluate cardboard boxes, expensive foam products, Gorilla Glue and even common house-bricks... Only after a double blind test with reproducible results would I be convinced that there was any benefit. (The Gorilla Glue may pose some post listening problems. :R )

I extend this argument to speaker "spikes"!
The only real situation this could be of benefit would be on plush carpet which may allow the speaker to move minutely back and forth, but wait I digress, wouldn't the foam blocks also allow the speakers some sort of horizontal movement as well. :scratchhead:
 

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Ethan, that was great! Thank you for doing what many of us want to. If I tried, I could possibly convince myself that iso products could be useful under speakers. Maybe... Before those tests.
Something I found offensive actually was this:

Seriously...?
If all these super mega awesome products do all these magical things, wouldn't oem's endorse them? Or make their own? Oh wait, they already know...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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Thanks for the fun read confirming my skepticism! In the end whether it has an impact or not is all about the foundation stiffness vs the cabinet mass, driver mass and positions etc.
 

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Your brain can be tricked by your feeling good about your purchase...doesn't mean it actually worked, it just means you think it does.
I get that. Doesn't answer my question. How do you measure sonics? For example... why do we not use aluminum speaker cable? Sure it's resistance is higher so you must use a larger diameter cable to get the same properties as the copper equivalent but equally spec'd aren't they the same? One minor issue being the aluminum shrink/expansion based on it's temperature BUT... wouldn't they both be the same because they measure the same?

How do you measure it's sonics? I've yet to see people come close to this which is why you have to rely on your easily fooled brain to do so.

years ago I stumbled across beryllium copper and it's acoustical properties in this article: http://materion.com/~/media/Files/PDFs/Beryllium/Engineering Design/Acoustic Properties of Beryllium_Materion.pdf/ Unfortunately these measurements are in the Mhz frequencies

It's implied that there is sonic measurement capabilites beyond resistance and such for cabling
 

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Your brain can be tricked by your feeling good about your purchase...doesn't mean it actually worked, it just means you think it does.
And also... I was super excited about my emotiva xpa-7 purchase... very excited. but immediately the highs sounded cold.

My mind was excited but as soon as I turned it on I was let down. Explain that trickery?
 

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Nice work and good feedback and questions.

It seems that one of the main problems with isolation & anchoring products is that they are so often used without thought or analysis as to what is to be accomplished in a given situation and the kind of product or material most likely to help accomplish what is needed. Mr Weiner's article points this out.

The two main classes of products we are talking about are isolation and anchoring products.
  • Isolation keeps vibrations from getting from where they are already to where you do not want them to end up.
  • Anchoring products do the opposite, they allow vibrations to be absorbed into a bigger mass to help eliminate them.
Different products work in different ways, and the user really has to look closely at what is going on in the product: absorption or transmission, at what frequencies, in what direction? Products exist which anchor in one plane while isolating in another, or which anchor at audio frequencies while isolating at subsonic frequencies, for instance.

A potential problem with testing - and I absolutely applaud the use of both lab testing and blind listening tests for verification - is that the use or lack of use of a given product may effect soundstage and imaging (SS&I) in ways that are audible yet might be difficult to pick out in typical acoustical lab tests. Note that I am not claiming them to be immeasurable, only difficult to measure, and perhaps calling for very specialized techniques.
 

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I get that. Doesn't answer my question. How do you measure sonics? For example... why do we not use aluminum speaker cable? Sure it's resistance is higher so you must use a larger diameter cable to get the same properties as the copper equivalent but equally spec'd aren't they the same? One minor issue being the aluminum shrink/expansion based on it's temperature BUT... wouldn't they both be the same because they measure the same?

How do you measure it's sonics? I've yet to see people come close to this which is why you have to rely on your easily fooled brain to do so.

years ago I stumbled across beryllium copper and it's acoustical properties in this article: http://materion.com/~/media/Files/PDFs/Beryllium/Engineering Design/Acoustic Properties of Beryllium_Materion.pdf/ Unfortunately these measurements are in the Mhz frequencies

It's implied that there is sonic measurement capabilites beyond resistance and such for cabling
The datasheet you referenced is about Beryllium and not beryllium- copper. It refers to Be's mechanical properties, from which vibration and acoustic properties behavior could be derived (for example as a tweeter dome material). This has nothing to do with its electrical properties as a speaker cable. The effect of adding a pure material (Be) into an alloy does not usually trends with the alloying material's properties.
 

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The datasheet you referenced is about Beryllium and not beryllium- copper. It refers to Be's mechanical properties, from which vibration and acoustic properties behavior could be derived (for example as a tweeter dome material). This has nothing to do with its electrical properties as a speaker cable. The effect of adding a pure material (Be) into an alloy does not usually trends with the alloying material's properties.
How do you measure sonics?
 

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Nice work and good feedback and questions.

It seems that one of the main problems with isolation & anchoring products is that they are so often used without thought or analysis as to what is to be accomplished in a given situation and the kind of product or material most likely to help accomplish what is needed. Mr Weiner's article points this out.

The two main classes of products we are talking about are isolation and anchoring products.
  • Isolation keeps vibrations from getting from where they are already to where you do not want them to end up.
  • Anchoring products do the opposite, they allow vibrations to be absorbed into a bigger mass to help eliminate them.
Different products work in different ways, and the user really has to look closely at what is going on in the product: absorption or transmission, at what frequencies, in what direction? Products exist which anchor in one plane while isolating in another, or which anchor at audio frequencies while isolating at subsonic frequencies, for instance.

A potential problem with testing - and I absolutely applaud the use of both lab testing and blind listening tests for verification - is that the use or lack of use of a given product may effect soundstage and imaging (SS&I) in ways that are audible yet might be difficult to pick out in typical acoustical lab tests. Note that I am not claiming them to be immeasurable, only difficult to measure, and perhaps calling for very specialized techniques.
I think me being a bit harder to explain my reasons and when I mention "how do you measure sonics".... SS&I is a form of sonics that to this point like you mentioned is one of the items that simply are difficult to measure if not impossible.

Thank you for another view and I agree. I applaud his efforts and comments but they should be taken into consideration that it's only one piece of a complete package. A guitar can be made from maple.... the same guitar can be made from pine. Which sounds better? How can you measure the affect of the sonics of wood?
 

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I think the question will have to be more specific. What sonics? In what situation?
See my post above. Materials have sonics = they resonate. SS&I is a kind of sonic imho. Phasing is a sonic that is measurable. sonic is just simply something you hear. But materials have sonic characteristics. two rooms.... one room entirely concrete... the other steel matching the specs of the concrete room. Would they sound the same? No... Different materials resonate and have different sonics.
 

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See my post above. Materials have sonics = they resonate. SS&I is a kind of sonic imho. Phasing is a sonic that is measurable. sonic is just simply something you hear. But materials have sonic characteristics. two rooms.... one room entirely concrete... the other steel matching the specs of the concrete room. Would they sound the same? No... Different materials resonate and have different sonics.
Gotcha. And, to use your example, "same specs" would give "same sonics" if those specs were all-inclusive of all possible sonic-related characteristics, but of course they never are. A given product's specs cover the characteristics that most people want to see most the time, and to go beyond that would demand an infinite amount of testing and an infinitely long spec sheet. Practicality wins, and, as you say, it is very possible for a set of specs to miss a measurement that would demonstrate an important sonic difference between two products or materials or situations. Yet we do our best - we endeavor to persevere!
 
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