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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Ok, lets see if I can get this up within an hour. (And yes I spelt THAILAND wrong :yikes:

Hello to all.

Seems the forum is a bit more on topic than others and more user friendly so here I stay.

I’m a first time poster here and have a few questions I’m hoping someone can help me with.

I’ve been monitoring this and other forums on a lot of topics and have learned quite a bit and now ask for some input pertaining to my current situation, as I’m no expert by any means.

I've also read a lot of what Bryan has to say and appreciate his knowledge. Seems he's another asset to "The Shack".

What’s important to me now is building a new system here, with limited resources. I know I can’t replicate what I had in the US, but I like my tunes and movies and need to make do here with what’s available.

The first has to do with room acoustics as my new house is under construction and being made with concrete floors and tile, cement block walls and sheetrock ceilings. I could lay insulation batts on the ceiling prior to the sheetrock if I wold do any good.

Yea, I know what you’re thinking, a cement house and a good sounding system don’t compute, but I’m now living in Thailand, and with no wood here, houses are built like bunkers and come to think of it. I've never seen a fire truck. Guess there's no need.

The roof will be finished next week and the concrete block walls will be next.

That being said, the main living room size is open and quite large at 22’ wide x 46’ long with about a 17’ vaulted ceiling (starting from the 10” vertical wall).

The framing is quite higher but the ceiling will be dropped to 17’ (Think of the elevation looking like an A with legs.)

http://[URL=http://s85.photobucket.com/user/mikeinthailand/media/Elevlg_zpsed77cd38.jpg.html]
[/URL][/IMG]

It's a complete open floor plan and my thoughts were to split the room somewhat by building a smallish internal wall about 8-9’ wide (to accomodate 65-70" tv mounting and component placment) x 8-9’ high near the front (this might be considered my “back wall”), in the center of the 22’ width (leaving a 6-7’ walkway on either side. This will put my (only) seating area 8-9’ from that TV wall.

The 10’ area behind this wall (the top of the A will be mostly glass.)

There is really no back wall as the area flows into an open kitchen about 10’ behind the seating area.

[URL)http://[/IMG]

Wow, 2 pics up already ..:unbelievable:

The plan was to locate the front mains a couple feet on either side of the TV and the surrounds near the side (concrete) walls.

Distances are good as all speakers should be about the same distance from the seating area.

As I don’t envision a place for rears, I was considering using front highs instead, located a 3’ or so the mains.

I can’t hang acoustical tiles or the like on the walls (don’t exist here), but with the size of the room and no real back wall or ceiling for reflection, how concerned should I be about the acoustical properties of this room.

I did find a place yesterday though that sells “Home Theater” components that include:

Metal furring strips that screw into the block wall. Insulation between the strips (think 1" pnk) and a piece of dense Styrofoam about 2” thick over that and finally drywall over that.

But in my room setup, where would/could I use these materials?

It’s not possible in the high ceiling, back or glassed wall behind the front stage. The only place feassable would be on the side walls with the surrounds. This "system" is 3-4" thick and if used I would have to reconsider my block wall construction.

System components are a bit limited here and I’m considering an Onkyo TXNR 727 or something similiar, with Polk speakers and a good sub, but that’s not important now.

The house has to be pre-wired or I’d end up grinding groves in the rendered walls or sheetrock, if used, to run the wires.

It’s a multi-purpose room and on a big piece of land I’m not concerned about noise in or out.
The geese may be a problem, but they're a hot item here and will be sacrificed if needed. :flex:

Locating the TV on a side wall might be possible (then I'd have a place for the rears) but no surrounds.
I've thought of this layout a lot and will build a mock up wall today from bamboo and eucalyptus of all things, just to get the location pinned down and speaker placement envisioned.

Last hurdle: If I can't get the wires overhead by locating the TV on the side wall, is it possible to lay the surround wires under the tile. BTW... there is no carpet here and green glue? forget it.

Thanks to all and if your ever in "the hood" stop by for some crickets and coconut milk.

Mike
 

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You could use a soffit to hide your wires and enable you to move orientation of the TV/surrounds if you ever want a change. Also you could prewire down the walls using some 2 1/2" PVC conduit for different possible setups. Overwire now, for sure.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Correct, I was planning to carry the "centered wall" scheme to the side walls using sort of a second (lower) ceiling to each side and adding soffits around the whole room for downlights and for the wire runs.

I'm more concerned about ECHO ECHO ECHO ECHO

I know I'll never replicate what I had in the states because of the limited resources here, but would like to do something/anything to enhance to room characterists, if feasable.
 

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That can work though with that construction type, glass, shape, etc. you will certainly have a lot of echo.

Definitely insulate in the ceiling to stop it from resonating. Nothing special. You'll want to consider damping on the angled ceiling and higher on the walls. I would also recommend after the room is finished, chopping off the peak of the ceiling maybe 3-4' wide, and laying in some damping material. It can be covered with wood slats (if you can get some) with gaps between for some nice visual appeal that will also provide some pseudo-diffusion along with a bit of damping. This also kills the 'mouth of the horn' so to speak.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thank's for chiming in Bryan I was hoping you'd pick up on this thread.

Definitely insulate in the ceiling to stop it from resonating. Nothing special. You'll want to consider damping on the angled ceiling and higher on the walls.

Are you talking about laying batt insulation on the ceiling, now 10' wide at the top, and down the angled sides? In what wall area should I dampen. From the front stage back to where?, or cover both sides front to back?
The walls will be 9' high to the soffits.


I would also recommend after the room is finished, chopping off the peak of the ceiling maybe 3-4' wide, and laying in some damping material.

Check the elevation drawing. The top of the ceiling is already 10' wide. Are you saying to run a 3-4' strip of dampining material down the middle? It's over 17' high and would need to be done while the workers are here as I'm not going up there.

It can be covered with wood slats (if you can get some) with gaps between for some nice visual appeal that will also provide some pseudo-diffusion along with a bit of damping. This also kills the 'mouth of the horn' so to speak.[/QUOTE]
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
That can work ..... QUOTE]

.... are you talking about.

Metal furring strips that screw into the wall, insulation between the strips and a piece of dense Styrofoam about 2” thick?

I'd think I'd also have to lay osb or something similar over the 2" thick foam and under the drywall to nail into.

And what about the block wall behind the tv and speaker location?


It sucks being 12 hours ahead of you as I will have to wait until tomorrow for a reply and as the walls are starting to go up now, ahead of time, it's crunch time. :sweat:
 

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Sorry - glanced and missed the 10' section - was concentrating on the A Frame. Yes - insualte in the 10' area and the rest also.

Block wall is what it is. Not great but you need a mounting point and no worse than anything else would be.

Styrofoam board will do absolutely nothing for either isolation or absorption. Fluffy insulation inside the walls to damp it. If you want isolation, use RSIC clips and channel then mount the drywall to the channel. Does nothing to improve in-room sound thought. That needs to happen inside the room after the drywall is up.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
I don't see how insulation under drywall would help interior acoustics. Sure drywall has resonance and adding two layers reduces it, but that's for soundproofing, something I have no concern over.

Block wall is what it is. Not great but you need a mounting point and no worse than anything else would be. :unbelievable:


Styrofoam board will do absolutely nothing for either isolation or absorption. Fluffy insulation inside the walls to damp it. If you want isolation, use RSIC clips and channel then mount the drywall to the channel. Does nothing to improve in-room sound thought. That needs to happen inside the room after the drywall is up.[/QUOTE]

I never heard of RSIC clips until I did a search. TIT. This is Thailand, and we're just now getting sliced bread. :clap:

The clips here, as I'd mentioned, were screwed into the block, with a 2" overlay of polystyrene covered with drywall.

You said it would work, but it really will serve no purpose, no isolation and nothing to improve "in room" characteristics.


I'm just having a hard time contimplating block walls with a stucco like substance overlay.:sad:

Be that as it may, why spend any money at all if, like you say, acoustic altering needs to happen AFTER the walls are up.

Thanks for the respones.
 

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Its not just for soundproofing. Its to stop the ceiling from resonating which CAN be something you can hear and measure in your room.

And don't dismiss sound isolation so quickly. Remember that it also acts to keep sound OUT of your listening room making for a lower noise floor and increased potential dynamic range.

Not saying don't use clips/channel. Just saying the styrofoam does nothing but eat money that doesn't need to be spent, and does not help to damp that air cavity so again, it too can act like a big drum resonating into the room.

When building a listening space, ANY cavity needs to be insulated and damped.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Its not just for soundproofing. Its to stop the ceiling from resonating which CAN be something you can hear and measure in your room.

Ok I understand what your saying, maybe I'm to thick headed because I can't see how laying bats over sheetrock, as light as it is, would stop the s/r from resonating (vibrating?)

And don't dismiss sound isolation so quickly. Remember that it also acts to keep sound OUT of your listening room making for a lower noise floor and increased potential dynamic range.

The whole front wall 21' wide (behind the sound stage) is all glass and I know I can't do anything about that.
I really don't have any outside noise to deal with, but again I understand you.

Not saying don't use clips/channel. Just saying the styrofoam does nothing but eat money that doesn't need to be spent, and does not help to damp that air cavity so again, it too can act like a big drum resonating into the room. When building a listening space, ANY cavity needs to be insulated and damped.



The typical construction methods here are concrete footers with 8" concrete posts on 12-15' centers going up to support the roof trusses as depicted in the elevation drw'g. attached prior. They use small 4"x2"x2" concrete blocks to fill the space between the posts, typically leaving about 5" of post exposed on one side or the other. I decided to use 2 courses of this brick which would leave me about a 3" cavity between them.
Would it then make sense to fill this air void with an insulating or dampening material? [/QUOTE ]

Rice husks are readily available here and dirt cheap and may be the answer. I'll do some research here on it's uses as insulation by others, or are you talking (pink) insulation again?

I don't think this would dampen the room as I'm not sure of it's term usage here. (Time for google)

Thanks again. I'll get back bafore you can reply as your to bed soon.
 

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Think of any cavity as a bass drum. Think of the difference between one that's hit with no damper or pillow in it (BOOM BOOM) vs one that does have a pillow or damper (THUD and stop). That's what an insulated vs uninsulated wall does. Plus when insulated, it actually acts as somewhat of a bass absorber. Not terribly efficient but it's something.

ANY cavity should be filled.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
Think of any cavity as a bass drum. Think of the difference between one that's hit with no damper or pillow in it (BOOM BOOM) vs one that does have a pillow or damper (THUD and stop). That's what an insulated vs uninsulated wall does. Plus when insulated, it actually acts as somewhat of a bass absorber. Not terribly efficient but it's something.

ANY cavity should be filled.

Got ya about the drum analogy Bryan, also explained to me by a Thai here.

I'm filling the 3" wall cavity between the block walls with batts or rolled insultion and the plus is that some of it will be on an outside wall keeping the place a bit cooler in the hot season (if I can get the Ms. to understand that keeping the doors closed helps).

Insulation will be from floor to support beam, 9' up. After the 9' is a 12" thick concrete horizontal support beam that will carry the roof load was there will be mostly glass beneith. Solid concrete, nothing I can do there.
From there up is the ceiling.

Please, I'd like to ask about this again.
Steel trusses make up the roof structure.
Starting at the 10' beam height, they go up at about a 45° angle to the peak.

The collar ties holding them together are about 17.5 feet above the floor line, where the ceiling will be.
Please refer to the elev. drw'g. I attached earlier.

Metal furring strips will run the length of the roof and sheetrock attached to that. (Foil back if I want it)
The truss "void" is 3' from sheetrock to roof tiles.
Obviously, I can't fill all that area, but did you suggest I lay batts or whatever on the s/r?

But just how far back should I take this. Behind the sound stage (TV) it's virtually all glass (that will be draped), and behind the seating area it opens up to the open kitchen (1/2) wall and, well, the back of the house, some 27 odd feet.

Same with the roof Bryan, just where and how far will insulation be effective and when does distance dictate
a "non need" enviorment, if at all?

And finally the sound stage itself. 10 or so feet wide x 7 or so feet tall, made from the same block to carry the screen and front highs (no place for rears).
Should I be concerned there as well, behind the speakers?
I could build it double wall as well, and insulate between, or cover the block with something if needed.
I envision double wall for the wires runs as well.


I think I found a source in Bangkok that sells acoustical panels, maybe.


Thanks again for your input Bryan and hope, wherever your at, your not to terribly cold.

Your the only one's that responded to my query, but from what I understand, I'm in good hands.

It's 9am here and coming up on 73°.


Mike
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Here again. Just back from the big city.

My choices for the insulation for the 3" cavity are:
2" plain rolls (R-17) and the same 2 or 3" foil backed both sides, with a better R rating.

I'm assuming the R rating is not the focus here (?) but your thoughts on foil backed or not?

I've been to your site, gald I'm not in the US, you'd get to mush of my money



Thanks agian for the education.
 

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As I said, fill ANY cavity you an. Do the whole ceiling, not just part of it.

partial wall - no
 

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Acoustically it doesn't matter if there if foil or not.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Well, the house is finally finished and I started a new thread on system selection and I'd appreciate it if you chime in there. You've given a lot of good advise in the past and I appreciate it.
 
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