[Talley]

So far...

a single test... with me at the MLP... with the audyssey mic placed on top my head... (yes, like a stupid little horn coming out the top of my head)...

has produced the best results for me. I find the results to be perfect. It's when you add more than that single test I hate the results.

Of course... this is no sub. I did this for music since in direct mode the SVS Ultras are too much bass. 1/3 smoothing for ease of seeing the "curve" change.

 

[tonyvdb]

Talley, what mic are you using for your REW measurement? something is off with what your getting for results. My understanding is if you have readings above 10kHz that hot your ears must be bleeding. Normally they should roll off the higher you get.
EDIT: the term roll off is not the correct word to use but its more a slope down about 10 or so db

 

[Wayne A. Pflughaupt]

Are the traces “before” and “after?” And if so, which trace is which? Traces with more of a visible contrast - say, red and green - would make them easier to follow.

When you say you don’t like the results with more than one test, are you referring to response or imaging?

Regards,
Wayne

 

[Talley]

Are the traces “before” and “after?” And if so, which trace is which? Traces with more of a visible contrast - say, red and green - would make them easier to follow.

When you say you don’t like the results with more than one test, are you referring to response or imaging?

Regards,
Wayne

ya sorry, not sure how to change the color yet, haven't seen that option. the color that shows the big bloat in the low end where the bass is 10+ higher than the rest is the before... audyssey was able to tame the low end back a bit to where it sounds alot better.

The response mainly. Imaging is better too but not as much as the response. Before the bass was boomy/bloated type of thing and now it's very articulate and accurate. Thats my impression at least.

 

[Wayne A. Pflughaupt]

Thanks for the info. I was interested because AudiocRaver has indicated that minimizing the number and spacing of mic locations results in improved imaging, compared to spreading them all over the room. His most recent evaluation used a single location and couldn't tell a difference in imaging with or without Audyssey or Dirac (you've seen it, I've seen your posts on the thread).

I’ve never done it, but it looks like the trace colors can be changed in Preferences window, “View” tab.

Regards,
Wayne

 

[Lumen]

Thanks for the info. I was interested because AudiocRaver has indicated that minimizing the number and spacing of mic locations results in improved imaging, compared to spreading them all over the room. His most recent evaluation used a single location and couldn't tell a difference in imaging with or without Audyssey or Dirac....

I have an XMC-1 with Dirac, but only a single LP in my small HT room . In trying to keep with the user manual, I spread my initial mic positions over the whole chair. The result was not pretty--congested and confused imaging, glaring mid-range, anemic bass. I started tightening up the pattern during the next three tries thinking that data points on the plane of the armrest or close to the seat cushion were irrelevant.

Sure enough, the sound field gelled when I shrunk the mic pattern down in close proximity to an imaginary head at the LP. Images came into focus, dialog improved immensely, and rear surround effects now played a role. In a nutshell, I felt much more immersed in the movie experience. Not a testimonial to single-mic placement, but I'd wager extrapolation would take SQ to the next level.

 

[Talley]

I have an XMC-1 with Dirac, but only a single LP in my small HT room . In trying to keep with the user manual, I spread my initial mic positions over the whole chair. The result was not pretty--congested and confused imaging, glaring mid-range, anemic bass. I started tightening up the pattern during the next three tries thinking that data points on the plane of the armrest or close to the seat cushion were irrelevant.

Sure enough, the sound field gelled when I shrunk the mic pattern down in close proximity to an imaginary head at the LP. Images came into focus, dialog improved immensely, and rear surround effects now played a role. In a nutshell, I felt much more immersed in the movie experience. Not a testimonial to single-mic placement, but I'd wager extrapolation would take SQ to the next level.

You touched on a perfect word. Before spreading over a 6' area across the couch doing all 8 points the bass sounded "anemic" and I notice the imaging is improved with only a single test. This is again my opinion based on what I'm hearing in my room and my results of course

Leaving to a single position the bass sounds perfect.

This is my results tonight playing with the sub integration. I had adjusted the volume on one but bumped the sub up a tad to kinda create a house curve of my own. Either sounds very similar. Gonna play around a bit more in the next few days but this after a SINGLE mic audyssey test w/ the sub

 

[Talley]

and I figured out how to change the colors too.

 

[atledreier]

Audyssey themselves suggest a 1' - 2' max spacing for a focused sweetspot. I'm always clustering as many measurements as i can within a 1'6" radius "disc" at ear height, with the tightest grouping around the ears average position. The most important measurement is the very first one, this must be accurately centered for best focus. I've very rarely got a problem with focus or imaging with this method. A silent room (no AC, computers or people) and good mic stand is essential and cheap.

 

[jb5200]

I've noticed in the manual of the Marantz AV7702 the mic positions for Audyssey are really close together vs. in the 8801 they are spread out much more, are they now finding out this produces better results?

What do you do if you have a larger room and want the imaging and performance for a larger area? Do you still suggest using the close mic positions/only 1 mic position?

 

[AudiocRaver]

A few thoughts:

The single mic point cal method will be favored more by soundstage & imaging (SS&I) perfection chasers. A small sweet spot is a given.

Many will be satisfied with somewhat less focus and will enjoy the greater flexibility of a bigger sweet spot, calling for a more spread-out multi-point mic pattern.

It is simply a matter of available options/tradeoffs and personal preference.

Room size does not seem to be a significant factor, other than allowing the opportunity for SS&I to be much more diffused by using an even more spread out mic pattern.

The Denon AVR-X5200 on-screen instructions for Audyssey setup say to keep all mic positions within 2 feet of the critical #1 mic position. Do not know if this is part of a trend or not, or what other manufacturers are saying.

"What manufacturers suggest" gives an interesting starting point relative to this subject, but in my opinion can be far from definitive. "SS&I" and its creation, not being directly measurable, is a creature that few manufacturers seem to be willing to address directly. Understandably so.

 

[Wayne A. Pflughaupt]

What do you do if you have a larger room and want the imaging and performance for a larger area?

It should be a given that imaging over a wide area is impossible to achieve anyway, due to basic physics, even with no room correction. As Wayne’s work has shown (if I understand it correctly), improved frequency response can be realized over a wide area with DRC, but the penalty is usually bad imaging at the main LP.

Regards,
Wayne

 

[tonyvdb]

Any thoughts on my original question guys? the graph Talley posted shows the highs flat out to 20kHz it is my understanding that thats going to be very harsh on the ears particularly at those levels at the listening position? Should there not be gradual slope down from about 10kHz

 

[Wayne A. Pflughaupt]

Probably a preference at least partially based on age. Middle-aged folks like me probably need it flat out to the end, or even boosted somewhat. People in their 20s, not so much.

Regards,
Wayne

 

[Talley]

Any thoughts on my original question guys? the graph Talley posted shows the highs flat out to 20kHz it is my understanding that thats going to be very harsh on the ears particularly at those levels at the listening position? Should there not be gradual slope down from about 10kHz

woa woa woa....

everyone here has always said that you want a flat response and not a "perceived flat response" which would be more of a slope down since we perceive lower frequencies as being lower and the higher as being louder.

My graph above is pushing a more than radical 35° of toe on the Ultras. Even Sonnie told me not to toe these much as they will become brighter.

My verdict is I have them toed in just a bit much. I really like how focused the vocals are right now but I lost a bit of SS&I compared to when I had them at 20° I'm gonna push them back to around 27-28° and see if thats more of a middle ground.

Toe'd in they are brighter... but the "space" of the recording really comes out you get a very good ambience with a less far left/right imaging. The sound stage shrunk but the ambience grew. I like the ambience and the vocals are awesome.

I'll push them back some and retest. Are they harsh?... no. are they bright?... simbilance is vibrant is how I would describe it.

The low end is nice. I wish I could put a more of a curve on it but audyssey won't allow that. I can bump the sub up but it looks like a plateau rising from 80hz down.

 

[Wayne A. Pflughaupt]

woa woa woa....

everyone here has always said that you want a flat response and not a "perceived flat response" which would be more of a slope down since we perceive lower frequencies as being lower and the higher as being louder.

The opposite, actually. Kal Rubinson is the only regular here I know of that regularly recommends true flat response.

Regards,
Wayne

 

[Talley]

and by my looking it's down about 7db from 800hz anyway at 20k. it does move down. You can see it easier when you apply more smoothing

I've attached the file so you can look at it.

 

[Talley]

And here was the very next test where I bumped the sub up by 2db to kinda give me a better curve.

Is this better for you tony?

 

[tonyvdb]

I wouldn't complain about your room response. Its a nice graph. I just know that in my room if I have the highs that high its too much and becomes tiring at or near reference level . I have about a 5db gradual drop starting at 12kHz out to 20kHz. My EVs have an attenuation control in 3db steps on the highs.

 

[Talley]

I wouldn't complain about your room response. Its a nice graph. I just know that in my room if I have the highs that high its too much and becomes tiring at or near reference level . I have about a 5db gradual drop starting at 12kHz out to 20kHz. My EVs have an attenuation control in 3db steps on the highs.

Gotcha. Ya I've had some audyssey tests come out like that and then sometimes it's flat. I wish it had some more consistency but at the same time this is when I was doing 8 mic positions too.

What I haven't done is a 8 position cluster around a 2' area. I've always spread out over 6' and I DO NOT like the results on that.

I'll try to do a 4-8 mic maybe even tighter around a 16" cube around the head and see if I can get better results.

Will try tonight and post up tomorrow.