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Discussion Starter #82
I have one question and it may have been addressed in the thread. Some of the speakers in the shootout sell direct and that means their price is street price. Many of the other speakers are sold through dealers and have a MSRP that is much higher than street price. For example, Klipsch RF-82 II's can easily be found for less than 1K. Makes me wonder how the RF-82's would have compared to the direct selling speakers.
The issue we have with a dealer or etailer who is selling them for less than MSRP is getting a loaner from them for evaluation. I could not even get Klipsch to send me a pair for evaluation, much less any of their etailers selling them for less than MSRP. I was left with the only option of buying from their website at the $1,000 price point. That way if I did not choose them, I was able to send them back on their dime. ListenUP had a deal going where they paid for return shipping on the Focals, so we were able to take advantage of the discount from that etailier. I had to outright buy the Magnepans, Vandersteens and MartinLogans (and the ML's were new). We won't do this again. We will only do the evaluation on new speakers that are sent to us from the manufacturer or a dealer. The only speakers we were able to get at no cost were the Arx and the HTD, both sponsors here at HTS... and the Tekton's from Eric. Of course I did end up purchasing the Arx from Jon, but we returned the THREE's to HTD. They are sending a new pair to Wayne for a full review.

This event was probably a little different than what I think a normal event would be, in that these were all speakers that I personally was interested in trying out for myself. for the next events, the speakers we choose may not necessarily be what I would consider purchasing for myself, although who knows what might happen. Our initial intent will simply to be evaluate 5-6 speakers in basically the same format, but not necessarily with the intent of me buying any for myself. We may all have favorites, but we will not rank them in any overall order. We may have a voting poll for ones we choose as our favorites... just not sure yet how that will work yet.
 

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Other than the bass extension and output I don't the the 82s would be much better than the 62s.
I disagree.
The RF-82 has a fuller smoother sound than the RF-62.
My bet is 10 out of 10 would pick the RF-82 over the RF-62 in a double blind listening test.
 

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Thanks for all of your hard work putting this evaluation together. It has been an interesting and enlightening read and I'm very much looking forward to the $2,500 shootout!
 

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Sonnie wrote:

Yes... just in case I do decide to keep a pair.

Boy howdy, that just about sums up our hobby. Always liking something a bit better! :spend:

I bet I'll be liking something soon as well. :whistling:
 

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I disagree.
The RF-82 has a fuller smoother sound than the RF-62.
My bet is 10 out of 10 would pick the RF-82 over the RF-62 in a double blind listening test.
+1 - I have heard both in the same space and the RF-82 was noticeably better.....
 

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+1 - I have heard both in the same space and the RF-82 was noticeably better.....
No comparison here. The RF-82 ii's are considerably better than the RF-62 ii's. You get another considerable jump when going from 82's to RF-7's.
 

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There is always a next model. If he listened to the lore s with seas drivers at 300 more it would.have made a difference . Im sure he could get a used pair for 1k. To me the cutoff is brand new from a site /store.
 

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I was not lobbying for the RF-82s to be substituted for the RF-62s in the shootout.
When it comes to establishing a price point for a speaker in a shootout I think the speakers should be brand new and the fair market value be the widespread easily obtained street price.
While deals can be found on the Klipsch RF series the most consistent discount is the 15% off MSRP and free shipping that Sound Distributors offers.
 

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Discussion Starter #94
How do you get the 15% off... or is that for the B stock only?

I think there may be several of these that we want be able to evaluate simply because the manufacturer will not send them to us for review. Klipsch is one of those... I would have to buy them and then return them, which is what I did for the 62's. We couldn't get them to send us any subs for review or testing. For whatever reasons they don't think we are legit and more or less brush us off as a nuisance.
 

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Until science catches up with art (and it will)
I certainly hope that never happens, for if it does musical reproduction will become nothing more than a lab experiment. There truly is a sensation - a feeling, if you will - that thankfully no measurement can quantify, and I personally like it that way. Musical reproduction should not be a completely sterilized environment consisting of little more than graphs and charts. People designing variations based upon intangibles is very appealing to me.
 

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Hey... I will be a guinea pig... :huh:

Even if it does, it won't change our emotions and feelings when we listen to music, although they may be able to create music that stirs certain emotions or senses, which we have that now, but it might be a more controlled thing if you wanted it to be.
 

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I certainly hope that never happens, for if it does musical reproduction will become nothing more than a lab experiment. There truly is a sensation - a feeling, if you will - that thankfully no measurement can quantify, and I personally like it that way. Musical reproduction should not be a completely sterilized environment consisting of little more than graphs and charts. People designing variations based upon intangibles is very appealing to me.
Jim, I hope that science will never eclipse art. I think that is part of the teething pains we see in the industry now...where people think that THERE IS NO ART and that all they need is the science component.

I think that "lab experiment" describes a LOT of the available speakers on the market today. They measure well, they make mathematical sense...but they don't involve you.

I truly hope you are correct. And thank you for wording it so eloquently.

EDIT: I should probably clarify what I originally meant by my above statement. With better measurements, we may be able to identify more aspects of design that have an effect on the intangibles...enabling us to re-create those intangibles with less effort and less time invested...but still keeping the magic.
 

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Thanks for the information on all of the speakers tested. I initially voted for the ML's only on spec and for your listening room and having now heard a pair in a more modest setting locally I know I will have to get a pair of Motion 12's for my 2 channel system.
 

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I certainly hope that never happens, for if it does musical reproduction will become nothing more than a lab experiment. There truly is a sensation - a feeling, if you will - that thankfully no measurement can quantify, and I personally like it that way. Musical reproduction should not be a completely sterilized environment consisting of little more than graphs and charts. People designing variations based upon intangibles is very appealing to me.
There will always be art, no matter how advanced technology becomes. If science catches up to the current state of art, humans will push to new levels. It was proven by Gödel over 80 years ago that no system can be complete upon itself. In other words, there will always be inexplicable phenomena in any system, based upon the definitions of that system. That might seem to make science and mathematics hopeless, but I would argue quite the opposite. The optimistic view is that if we push to the limits of understanding, there is always some mystery left to discover the nature of. There will always be some magic to experience. In my opinion, far from disproving the existence of something beyond our ability to observe and understand, science and mathematics have provided convincing arguments that God exists.

What I take issue with is when one tries to exploit a lack of understanding with nonsensical hocus pocus, refusing to look beyond what we know in favor of popularizing mysticism for the sake of profit. Similarly, I don't buy the idea that we can sufficiently describe everything using primitive concepts and tools like we have in audio.
 

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I was all set to pick up a L/R/C HTD Level 3 when I happened on this shootout. It was surprising to see how much difficulty the HTD set encountered. I'm really interested in the replacement set and how it performs. Is there a timeline on when we might see those results?
As it is I'm thinking ARX A5 and waiting for their new center paired with a Rythmik F25 for my HT/Music room. The ML 12 looks tempting but the vendors are not really speaker people (NewEgg, Amazon).
 
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